Suicide and real estate disclosure
 

The house next door is in the foreclosure process. One of the owners committed suicide about 2-3 years ago and its been empty since. My question is this: When it finally goes on sale, will the agent be required to disclose the suicide, or will the buyers learn after they close and move in? Most of us neighbors know, so they are sure to discover this at some point, though they certainly won't hear it from me. The death was particularly grim and will disturb even the most even-tempered person.

So are there any real estate legal folks out there who know this answer?

Real Estate Practice and Principles 36th edition states "Florida statute mandates that a property was, or was at any time supected to have been, the site of a homicde, suicide, or death is not a material fact in a real estate transaction" so is not required to be disclosed by a property owner or a real estate licensee.

Cannot speak for Village Sales Agents that do not operate under the same code of ethics required of MLS REALTORS.

Same holds true for haunted houses. If the present owner has had any type of paranormal activity in the house, he is supposed to inform the real estate agent about it.

[quote=gomoho;668750]Real Estate Practice and Principles 36th edition states "Florida statute mandates that a property was, or was at any time supected to have been, the site of a homicde, suicide, or death is not a material fact in a real estate transaction" so is not required to be disclosed by a property owner or a real estate licensee.

quote]

I think that gomoho just explained it did NOT have to be disclosed.

it will show up when the homeowner policy is done...All claims follow a home so if hazmet came to do the clean up its on the policy

So is the key word there might be "suspected". Most states mandate "if known", it must be disclosed to the buyer. In, Florida, I'm not sure, but the wording makes me suspicious.

gomoho is correct. Does NOT have to be disclosed.

I believe if a potential buyer asks the real estate agent if there was a death in the residence, the have to disclose it to them.

Our neighbor just sold their CYV and neither the seller nor agent disclosed to the buyer that there was a major water leak in the slab of a 1-1/2 year old home. Last September when our neighbors came for a short stay they discovered the M/Bath and M/BR were flooded with water. A pipe under the slab had sprung a leak. TV Warranty Department fixed the problem, it took three weeks to repair. They had sledgehammers going through the floor, all the drywall, cabinets and flooring had to be ripped out and replaced with new.

Six weeks ago our neighbors came for another short stay in March, but while here they decided to buy a new CYV in Sanibel and put this CYV on the market with TV Real Estate.

Two days after they left a man along with a couple came by the home while I was in the yard, the man said, come meet your new neighbors. The home was sold, the couple said they were Canadians and just wanted to use the home for a couple of months a year since the man still worked.

The following week I saw the couple again, and they said they had just closed that morning and they were dropping off a few items and then would be headed back to Canada. The neighbor across the street said, did they tell you about the water leak in the slab? The couple looked shocked and said, what do you mean. They immediately went inside and called TV Realtor. The next day I saw the couple as they were packing the car and were getting ready to leave. The woman said to me, if I had known about the leak, I would of never bought this home. I asked what did the realtor say, she said that since it was repaired by the warranty department, it did not need to be disclosed. They got in their car and started the engine and the woman said when they get back to Canada, they were going to contact a lawyer.

The listing and photo are still online if you use search, here they are below. However, it is no longer on the TV Homes website. I would believe that not giving out such pertinent information is bad dealing by TV Real Estate, then again the realtor is working for the seller and not the buyer.

Properties of The Villages

http://www.thevillages.com/homes/vls..._1&w=400&h=300

Thanks to all for your input. I must say it makes me cringe to think of buyers moving in to their new home only to learn AFTERWARD of something so grisly happening there, as this particular suicide was not at all ordinary. Just seems wrong. What do you think?

Stigmatized property.
 

Florida Laws on Stigmatized Property | eHow.com

I would want to know about that. I guess it pays to talk to some of the neighbors around a house you are interested in purchasing.

Given the population
 

While admittedly a muder in a home might give me a little pause (I would re-examine the history of the area) before purchasing, my only concern with a death would be that the home was properly cleaned so that I would not be worried about biological hazards still present (and if there are no disclosure requirements I guess a little faith is needed). Yes, suicide can be upsetting, but if you really think about it, there is a percentage of people who pass in their homes in the Villages (many people who live in the Villages refer to themselves as "Frogs" afterall!). If the nature of one's passing bothers you enough that it impacts your plans to purchase, you probably always need to buy a brand new home (and even this doesn't guarantee anything).

why would it matter unless your religion has a thing about such a happening....which I doubt.

I can understand that for some folks it would be personally unacceptable for whatever reason.

btk

Suicide or death in a home I purchased would not be an important issue with me but my wife just said it would be for her. We once looked at a Villa here in TV that had a cemetery behind it---we quickly said thanks but no thanks. Bottom line--- what "bothers" one person doesn't another. However, law or no law, my integrity is important to me and I would disclose the suicide if I knew about it and would be disappointed with my real estate agent if he/she didn't disclose the suicide to a buyer.

as a south florida realtor I am required to give re-sale buyers all information that is presented in the sellers disclosure, that is florida law. sellers sign and buyers sign the disclosure statement..

The sellers are obligated to disclose all information that they are aware of as far as the condition of there home. In regards to deaths in the home, natural deaths do not need to be disclosed. Murders/suicides should be disclosed on that disclosure.

I sold a home that the sellers did not disclose roof leaks and no evidence was found by the buyers home inspectors, but the roof leaked into closets and led to massive water damage, and the buyers sued the seller and won.

in regards to the water leaks, the sellers did know that had happened and it was required to be disclosed.

I don't believe in haunted houses and I don't believe in ghosts.

I do believe in meth labs. And I wouldn't want to buy any home that had one.

What happened to the meth lab house?

Good advice, Taltarzac. It is better to find out before the fact rather than after. The same information found after the fact may not have been a deal breaker had it been known before the fact but it could be disturbing.

As a former Florida real estate broker I could tell some interesting stories on neighbors' involvement in the sales process.

Some things just creep people out like being near a cementary.

I think gomoho is legally right. For some people, they might feel a moral obligation to be told.

In most cases when you buy a foreclosure it comes "as is" with no disclosures. Once a house has been foreclosed the "bank" is the new owner and would not have first hand knowledge of any events that may or may not have taken place concerning the property.

Its the Law, full disclosure, if not disclosed the realtor faces triple damages

Disclosure
 

I cannot imagine a Realtor who would be so unprofessional as to share a clients personal information so cavalierly. Unbeknownst to me I once bought a home in which a woman had died of a heart attack. I managed to live there happily for 19 years and move on to three new homes in spite of that. A death or a suicide does not "put a hex" on a home. If informed you just might put one on it mentally.

I was really less stressed before I knew about the death in my home. Why would someone want to know this? :shrug:

I agree Salybow.

In Europe, many homes are literally centuries old and many people have been born or died in those homes.

I think if we dwell on things we can cause fear to happen. Being born and dying is part of everyones life on earth.

No, the wording is very clear here. "was, or was at anytime suspected" The first was takes care of the known suicide or homicide or death. The second phrase covers where it may have happened. The same statute covers HIV/AIDS which is not required to be disclosed. The florida realtor association has a several page disclosure form for the seller to provide however it seems to be their form not one required by law. The only laws I could find were related to flood plains, property taxes and few other minor concerns.

Here is the best summary I could find: FAR-Legal Center-Ask an Attorney-Disclosure Legal FAQs

"A seller isn’t required to fill out a seller’s disclosure statement regardless of whether the seller occupied the property or not.

However, pursuant to the Florida Supreme Court case Johnson vs. Davis, a seller is required to disclose known facts that materially affect the value of the property that are not known and readily observable to the buyer."

It seems to allow a lot of wiggle room for the seller to decide what is a material fact, like repaired plumbing. The purpose of the cited law is to categorize suicide... as not being a fact that needs to be disclosed. Maybe we could encourage Rep. O'Toole to draft legislation requiring a fuller property disclosure similar to the realtor's form, as I believe most other states already do.

People need to be more open minded when it comes to hauntings. The house I moved from in Chicago was so haunted, I had paranormal investigators from around the country lined up to come in and do research. I didn't stay long enough to wait for the results!

THAT house was built in 1885 and was built in an area where there were over 400 John and Jane Doe's buried from a local mental asylum. The realtor never told us the history of the area and as a result, that house and several other houses in a 3 block area were haunted. I'll never forget what happened to us in that house but...on topic...the realtor never said a word.

Evidently they purchased the home from a sales agent of the Villages who do not operate under the same disclosure issues of the the rest of Florida Lcensed Realtors.

Just curious, why would you have to disclose anything if the repair was done correctly by a licensed contractor? I've had another house on the east for the last 20 years, don't think when I sell I will remember all the repairs done to disclose.

We have had many real estate transactions over the course of our 51 year marriage.

We have worked with the same Villages agent on two homes here in the last six, almost seven years and were basically looking for a second home about two years after buying the first one, as we planned to make the move to a year 'round home.

In the ins and outs of looking with Jim McLaughlin: our villages agent and looking without him at open houses by The Villages and by MLS agents you learn a lot. And absorb a lot in the way of climate in the real estate market locally.

Jim is a villager and he told us truthful answers to the questions we posed to him and a lot of the truthful answers were "I honestly don't know". Jim also told me that there are a couple of "pushy" agents who work for The Villages. I imagine that perhaps there are those that maybe we wouldn't have liked as well as Jim and perhaps there are some that are not as honest.

The truth is that these houses for sale here are in one of the hottest real estate markets in this country. You don't have to lie and cover up and be tricky to sell them.

I once had a home that had paranormal occurences happen and at the time since we never felt threatened and was some what curious I now wish I spent time researching the property. It was never disclosed by the realtor if something did happen there.

The Florida Real Estate Laws are the same for ANY Licensed Agent in the State of Florida. There is no special Laws for REALTORS only.

I can not think what any one would care what happened in the house if it did not affect
the structure of the house. There was a death in the house, Happens a lot in the Villages
Same with the water Leak, I would be glad it happened before,Instead of after I purchased
the home.

I would want to know if a water leak (especially of the magnitude described) occurred, so that I could at least make an informed decision on whether I'm willing to take the risk it will happen again.

In other words, was it just a fluke and a one time occurrence...or endemic of other serious problems?

Water lines embedded in the slabs of almost new houses...don't just break.

There's a reason for it.


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Disclose- disclose -disclose is always best- especially when you know the neighbors will share. Speaking as an experienced real estate agent who believes in maintaining positive long term relationships with clients.

Suicide and real estate disclosure
 

I was in Real Estate for 30 yrs. in California and we had to disclose a suicide, death by any means whether by natural causes, accident, murder or suicide for 3 years after the event.

Excellent!

You sound like the kind of agent I would like to have...and that we need more of. :thumbup:

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The same in my previous state.

It only seems proper to do such.

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You can always make your own disclosure
 

You can always make your own disclosure questionnaire part of the contract. We have moved a lot and not trusting or wanting to get into the laws of a state we are new to we have a list of disclosure questions that we require as part of the contract. You can always modify any contract to fit your comfort. If they don't accept they don't accept. I am known for crossing out what I don't like (make sure to initial and date) add addendums and generally change up the standard forms it drives realtors nuts.

Water lines are buried before the slab is poured. They are not embedded in the concrete. Yes, they may fail, but it is usually caused by a bad glue joint.

On the home we sold in Ohio, that we built and lived in for 23 years, our basement flooded three months before we put it on sale due to a really, really, unusually heavy rainy spring and an extremely heavy rain, it had never happened before, we had the basement floor ripped up and had a French drain installed, along with a life time guarantee that the basement was protected in writing from the contractor who installed the French drain.

Now that is something we had to disclose. That is the real estate law of Ohio, whether we sold it personally, or an MLS agent sold it who is married to the Speaker of the House of the United States sold it. That is Ohio law.

Florida laws on disclosure are different than Ohio laws on real estate disclosure. That still means that if you sell it yourself, if an MLS agent sells it or a Villages sales agent sells it, the law is the law and real estate disclosure laws must be followed.

If there was a big problem with water lines, I am pretty danged sure we would have heard it on this forum. We heard about unburied air conditioning lines on this forum. It is important that that much water is disclosed because of the danger of mold.

We watched this house being built, daily, and watched the other houses being built around us, it was very interesting and fun to watch. We watched a total of seven homes bring built for us and two for our chldren over the course of our lifetime. The last two were custom homes by one of Cincinnati's good builders. The home we built here was the most skillfully built of all and the builders were the most careful. It was amazing how they do it with crews who just do one thing and are expert at it. The finishing tile in the kitchen was put in and the builder had it removed and done again because he didn't like how it was done. We were at this site at least once a day and sometimes twice and three times and lived next door, behind and across the street from homes that we watched after we moved in.

But to the point of the thread. Disclosure of person killing themselves in the home. What is important to one is not important to another, but the law must be followed. You can't get away with anything in The Villages.

The truth will out.

I guess I'm too used to how they build radiant floor heating (in the concrete). :oops:

As to why it failed, it could be due to a multitude of reasons.

The point being, if it happened once so soon...could it happen again?

The buyer should at least be afforded the information, so that they can make the decision for themselves.

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Natural death such as heart attack or old age does not carry the same the same stigma as a homicide or suicide.