Awful course conditions
 

:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:

OP, I am inclined to agree with you that the championship courses were below average condition this winter. I do know we had an extremely dry winter but most of the surrounding courses were in better condition. If I owned and operated the Villages Championship courses, I would be asking some questions of my greens keepers and if I didn't get some answers I would be doing some new hiring.

Geez, I'm signed up to play Cane this afternoon. Ugh!

Just curious - who did you speak to in Management? I spoke to the head of golf operations, can't remember his name now, and he was quite honest about the conditions. This was a couple of years ago. Ata the time I had complained to him about the conditions at Orange blossom. Apparently he had received many complaints, and I think they went and got a different maintenance company. Since then the conditions there have been much better. Bottom line, if the word gets to the correct person in management, and a large number of people complain, I think it is possible to effect change.

boy I love these dryed out golf courses the fairways are as hard as a rock. so now i don't have to aim for the cartpaths to get any amount of distance. i can just fire down the middle of the fairway and let that puppy roll for over 100 yeards in order to hit a 240 drive.:D

I wonder what the average rainfall per year was the last 6 years?

I believe manager of operations changed since a couple of years ago. I had corresponded by email last year because of cart path only restrictions on Mallory when the fairways were in good condition. Golf carts were allowed to use fairways the previous day. The staff in the pro shop stated the restrictions while the starter said there were no such restrictions. Many times when you inquire about the poor course conditions at the pro shop you get answers such as "our pumps were down for 5 months" you feel insulted. If management waits until complaints pour in instead of personal inspections and oversight before changing maintenance people, then that indicates the need for changes in course management.

I have played several courses south of 466 the last 3 weeks. All in poor to fair shape. Lack of water makes it partially understandable. I have played several courses north and find them in much better shape. IMHO. It appears the older the better.

That's not a coincidence. The older courses have had time for the bermuda grass roots to get deeper so they show less stress from lack of water and traffic.

upsetting
 

I just got through arguing with all my husbands childhood friends, that the villages would be better for our retirement than out here in Hawaii (We are visiting family as we do every May) because with the lower cost of living :$: and all the courses available he could play golf as often as he liked. I need to win this debate as they are pushing hard for us to live here and I hate Honolulu.

If course conditions are that bad on the 18's how bad are the more challenging of the exc courses.:cryin2: If one planned to play them to work on ones short game?

How much additional do I need to plan in the budget for off campus golf? And if you can't play in the villages why live there isn't golf the whole point.

Either the golf leadership is ignorant or really doesn't care about the conditions. No one is using Bermuda anymore. It can't stand up to the heat and needs far too much water. There are new strains of grass that are both heat tolerant and need little water to thrive. Yet Bonifay,Evans Praire and the new exec course all use the old grasses. And lets see what they use on the courses they are redoing bet it's the same old stuff. Even the cost of the new grasses is not prohibitive. I believe greens can be replaced for about $300,000 per 18 holes. Gee, maybe there is another reason,they are cheapskates.

To answer your last question first, golf is not the whole point of TV. Golf is big here, but there are so many other things to do as well.

We have experienced unusual winters the last few years. First, there was a combination of colder than normal fall/winter periods when we also had lower than normal rainfall. That, combined with the increased play during the high season, had a negative effect on the courses. The last winter was milder, but there was still lower rainfall than normal. Other, older, courses outside TV seem to have weathered the situation better. Some of those courses are not as restricted with water use as TV is. Some of those courses also have lower fees than TV both winter and summer. So you have a choice. Play within TV which is more convenient, or outside TV which may be less expensive and may be in better condition at times.

In questioning the costs of the championship courses, I was informed the maintenance costs here are significantly higher than outside TV mostly because of the high volume of play they get all year round. As posted above, the older courses within TV tend to be in better condition because the turf has had more time to mature.

IMO, complaints about conditions occur seasonally. This is the time when we are transitioning from the overseed to the regular bermuda. One way to do this is to cut the grass shorter than normal and reduce watering. This kills any remnants of the overseed. Follow that with aeration, fertilization, and water to stimulate the bermuda. During this phase, the course will be hard, thin, and unattractive. When completed, it will be much improved. So I don't see as many complaints during the summer, especially if we get normal rainfall.

Did not mean Bermuda grass meant no one uses bent grass anymore. Many are changing to Ultra Dwarf Bermuda grass. Not the Villages though. They must know something no one else knows.

Basically every course off campus are cheaper. Most I have played are in better shape. Throw in a gallon of gas to get there and you still come out better off campus. Again, IMHO. That being said I do love the execs for fun.:wave:

There is no bent grass in TV. The fairways and greens are bermuda hybrids. Bent grass wouldn't require overseed in the winter.

I question your price on replacing greens with dwarf hybrid bermuda. My research shows the cost to replace a green to USGA specifications ran about $50K per green and up 4 years ago. That would compute to almost $1 million per 18 holes. But even if it's accurate, you are talking about $6.5 million and all the down time to do it throughout TV championship courses. Then there are the execs. Tierra will be out of play all summer. Are you willing to lose one course every year? Even in the high season?

Research on the ultra dwarf and dwarf hybrids indicate they are far more sensitive to maintenance issues.

Are you prepared to pay more to play here?

The championship courses are self-supporting. If conditions deteriorate to a point that play drops, they could raise the fees to recoup lost income, which would further discourage play. Or they could address the maintenance issues so that play increases and income is restored. OR they could turn over the courses to a national or regional management company with no ties to TV that could make the courses completely public without Priority access or discounts for residents.

When i move here in 2005 there were 7 champion courses and
Cane was just building the third nine. I would have given a 7 or 8 to the course conditions then, as time went on and the newer courses were build the whole championship golf conditions deteriorated. I once referred to the newer courses a cow pastures with sand - everyone jumped all over me --- well i can now say the the rest of the courses can now join the cow pasture category. i moved here mostly for golf - not to go the the square
but that is just me.... I dont really care what kind of grass is on the courses -blue -green - bent or straight - it is not my job - to the powers that control the conditions - fix them --thats your job ---if I performed my job like you perform your job I would have been fired --- as of now i will continue to bash the conditions and architecture of the tv courses whether here or on the web.until this is corrected - I will also tell anyone interested in a move to the villages about the detererating conditions or the championship courses -- that is my part --- now Fix them----If the county can allow a comerical bottler of water to take out millions of gallons from the aquaduct and sell it country wide... then we should be able to use some for irrigation -- what happen to the political pull -- all of the rallies in the squares So i have to have a glass of kool aid --- I need it

Golf fees vis a vis playing conditions on TV Championship courses is inversely related.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play...but so do other courses.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play but then since they have higher fees they also have more money to spent on maintenance.

The Developer has a habit of spinning off what he feels is not profitable. Sooo too with the Championship courses. time will tell the tale

Railing about course conditions on a message board may make you feel better but won't accomplish anything. Since there is a group that feels strongly that course conditions are inadequate, I would suggest that you start with your regular golf group and recruit as many like minded people as possible. Create an agenda outlining point by point what you feel needs to be improved and present it in person to golf administration.

However, I would suggest you avoid terms like cheapskate, ignorant, don't care, cow pasture with sand, as it won't help your cause. I would also suggest you brush up on water allocation rules.

Just remember, if the courses are usually filled (except Palmer), revenues are covering short and long term expenses plus a profit, and homes are selling well, the owner may not agree there is a need to change things.

It's been this way for years. They simply don't spend enough to build the courses properly and they surely don't spend enough to maintain them. Have personally talked to top Golf Management many times and get nothing but BS excuses. Why would they care when the vast number of people who live here don't know the difference between good and bad and continue offering unwarranted praise. You are absolutely right that the courses here are substandard. Virtually every trip off site proves time and time again how really bad these courses are. Played Bonifay last week and almost broke a wrist trying to stick a plastic Tee into the ground (18 times) Fairway like an airport runway and the greens hard as a rock. Also played Lopez last week, just a few weeks after the LPGA Legends played it under pristine conditions. The fairways are mowed way to low, the greens were pathetic.

Numerous area courses are far better. (Juliette Falls, Celebration, Stony Brook West, Arlington Ridge, etc, etc, etc.)

The conditions are very poor at Cane, Mallory, Evans Prairie, and Legacy. Those are the only ones that I have been to in the last few weeks. I have only been here a year, but even with the extreme drought last year, it seemed that the courses were in much better condition at this time last year. Cane was in poor condition last summer, but the others seemed much better last year.

But not all the courses are bad
 

Yes I agree. there is something very bad going on with some of our courses like Cane Garden but on the other hand some of the execs are the best I have ever seen them, ie. Mira Mesa, De La Vista, Chula Vista, Silver Lake.

I played Cane yesterday, and it was like a cow pasture on some of the holes. Do yourself a favor and save your money.

mikeod: I have a theory that in one way or another the Developer's people monitor this forum, which I view as being very smart. Heck they may even help finance the forum since it is so beneficial to this Development.

I cite as proof the well responded threads on Health Care in The Villages. Now compare that with the recent news blitz in the Daily Sun concerning Welby, etc.

I believe that people should express their true feelings of course with objectivity and fairness. And why it makes no sense for some to respond with ïf you don't like it move."

This forum affords us an opportunity to express our feelings and experiences concerning The Villages without either the resident or the Developer losing face. "What A Forum"

I opine you decide

I doubt conditions will improve as long as residents keep playing and the courses keep making money. Vote with your feet. The courses are business enterprises and they all need to make a profit.

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

how about the fairways ??? Thanks for the information

I appreciate the update. Still, you're talking millions of dollars to re-do the championship courses and take each one out of play for up to eight weeks. That also assumes the green base is satisfactory. if so, great. if not, there is much more work to to. Then there is the matter of maintenance. I believe from the website link below that the statement of one summer aeration reflects only part of the story. And, if you search for ultra dwarf bermuda diseases, you will see that there are significant concerns that may be exacerbated by the amount of play these get. And, if the maintenance issues you decry are there, will they be able to maintain the new greens any better than the present ones despite the reduced water demand?

Managing Ultra-dwarf Greens - LSU AgCenter


Truthfully, I would love to play on greens with champion or mini-verde or another ultra dwarf bermuda. The reduced grain and increased speed are desirable. TPC Sawgrass has champion, I believe, and putting there is wonderful. But, IMO, the greens here, once the transition from overseed is complete, are not the big problem with course conditions.

To me, most complaints are with the fairways and the amount of turf cushion from which to play. I attribute this to a few factors. One, IMO, the newer courses, Bonifay and Evans, were opened too soon. They really needed to sit for another growing season to let the grasses mature. I understand that there would be an outcry from the new residents south of 466A who see a golf course they cannot use. But putting all those carts and players on immature grass results in what you see now. Havana also was opened ahead of schedule, primarily because of the damage done to Mallory by the tornado. It took some time before Havana fairways got better.

A second factor is the use of carts itself. Watch any hole on any course, and you will see cart after cart driving right down the middle of the fairway. Multiply this by the number of tee times and you have a recipe for compaction of the turf and delayed recovery of the turf grass . Add to that the number of RA sleeves that allow carts to drive up to 15 feet of the green and you add even more to turf damage. I would not want to see carts restricted to paths only since it would prevent many residents from playing simply because of the walking required from path to ball and back. But perhaps if more used the rough to travel, the fairways would be in better shape. This factor affects all the courses.

Another factor is the availability of water. Again, my information is that TV has a set water allocation from the regional water authority for everything below 466. Homes, landscaping, and golf courses draw from that same allocation. The more homes drawing water, the less is available elsewhere. The local water authority has the ability to reclaim water for irrigation, which reduces the draw on the allocation but is insufficient on its own to meet all irrigation requirements. The courses have tonrely on rainfall to provide immediate water and to fill retention ponds to provide water when it's not raining. When rainfall is insufficient, the fairways suffer as the choice should be to protect the greens first.

I volunteer with a group that monitors all the executive courses for maintenance issues and meets with golf administration quarterly to exchange information. In between meetings, if we see something that needs to be addressed, we can, and do, contact the proper people to let them know. In my years with this group, I have never been given the impression they don't care. Quite the opposite, they have worked with us to improve the quality of the courses. Our suggestions are noted and, when possible, acted upon, which happens more often than not. Perhaps what is needed is a similar group for the championship courses, if one doesn't already exist.

I question some of the decisions that are made regarding the courses. I personally never thought there was an issue with the greens at Tierra del Sol. The fairways needed work, but the greens seemed fine. So what do they do - pull up all the greens, they'll be replanting, and the course won't be decent for a couple of years. Yet a course like Amelia on Mallory - seems to have a lot of problems with greens - they are dry, don't hold. They had problems for years with the practice green at Mallory, and the pro there showed me a layer of organic material below the surface that was causing the problem. They finally ripped up that green and re-planted, but it took them years, after initially denying there was a problem. I wonder if the courses were really built to the specs they should have been, and now we are paying for that in maintenance issues. Mikeod, I agree that the management cares, but I do wonder about some the decisions that are made.

I don't think that there is very much bent grass south of the Mason Dixon line. Bent grass is very susceptible to many diseases and does not tolerate heat very well. Unless there are some new strains of bent that can be grown in the south I think that almost all the greens and fairways down here are Bermuda.

You left out the fact that many golfers come from the north where fairways tend to to be longer and fluffy. They have learned to scoop the ball rather than to correctly hit down and through the turf. Most good player would rather play off of rock hard fairways than to have grass growing up around the ball. Go play golf over in Scotland on some of the greatest, most renown courses in the world. You'll see how golf is meant to be played.

Whats the average price to replace old green with new green? $30,000.00?

I have heard that it is the counties that control the water allocations for the golf courses, not TV. TV may own the retention ponds and irrigation systems, but not the water in them. Since the course conditions are pretty much the result of a lack of water, shouldn't complaints be directed at the counties?

A lot depends on what you're used to. I started out playing golf in the northeast and remember that the better courses had bent greens that held almost any shot. Then I went west and played on hybrid bermuda greens. I thought they were bad at first because they were hard and would only hold a short iron that was well struck. I made friends with the course superintendent, who had a lot of experience with both grasses, and he told me that a healthy bermuda green will be more firm than a bent green in general. Part of it is the amount of water a bent green requires, especially over the summer even up north. He also felt the base was different which also contributed to the firmness. Bent roots are fairly shallow, whereas bermuda roots can get very deep, although the majority of roots will be in the top 3 feet or so. This is why bermuda needs less water and why it thrives in the south.

I can't tell you why Tierra's greens are being re-done and I agree they seemed to be good. Perhaps there was an ongoing problem that required an inordinate amount of work to keep them that way. I don't know. Perhaps they were approaching the end of their useful life and they decided to remake them at the same time they reworked the rest of the course.

I, too, wonder if the construction method used is optimal for long term health of the courses or if it's aimed at creating a quick greening up but creates maintenance nightmares in the future. And there is also the question of funding renovation. We are lucky in that all the execs north of 466 plus the Pimlico courses get funding from the AAC and, so far, there hasn't been a problem with funds for maintenance and upgrades. And they have approved a ten year plan for maintenance and renovation for these courses. I wonder if there is a similar plan and funding for the championship courses.

Again, I would like to see if there is an opportunity for a resident group to interact with golf administration regarding the championship courses. Even at the non-equity clubs I belonged to, there was an opportunity to discuss concerns with management/ownership. They may not agree, but at least we were heard.

I don't think that's true. There are two large water districts that control water allocation to TV. St. John's controls Lake County (among many other counties) and Southwest Florida for the rest of TV. There are significant fines involved for overuse of water by TV.

Recently hired by Golf Administration????? They sing the same tune.

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

Maybe I am confused. We are not in Scotland. We are in TV. We have water restrictions but we also have rain (sometimes). The courses that I play seem pretty good. But then I only play north of 466. I guess I don't know what we are all looking for. I doubt that we will see the courses in TV that we see on the TV. Our TV courses are not trying to get professional golfers or put our courses on TV.

Try the other courses in TV and see if you can find some that you like.


Z

No Z. You're not confused. Got off track. I agree the courses north of 466 tend to better since they have had more time to mature. Hacienda had problems because of inadequate irrigation installed during construction, I believe. That has been corrected.

And it's true our courses are not intended by design to challenge pros. They are designed for the population that lives here, and the vastly different skill levels of our fellow residents.

But course conditions affect everyone differently. Depends on what your accustomed to and your expectations. I think we've had a good discussion in this thread.

We have been in a rain deficit for a couple of years, maybe more. Just look at many of the retention ponds. They have averaged a very low level consistently the past few years. Anyone check out Paradise Lake? It's already a pasture once covered by water earlier than last summer. Yet, when we do have bouts of heavy rain and the ponds get filled the irrigation systems run day and night as "flood control" pouring water into poor drainage areas instead of saving it for times of drought. I received some flack a while back for criticizing the "flood control" policy. I was informed that we have one of the most advanced irrigation system here. If we do then those who oversee it need to re-think some of the automatic discharges in time of heavy rains. Adding water to already standing, stagnant water on fairways reeks of stupidity and invites damage to turf.