Talk of The Villages Florida - Breakers Tripping in Neighborhood

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 1118828)

In 2013 the national association for hams (AARL) was working with Eaton after this problem was reported with a certain design. At that time Eaton had a new design in the works. My guess is this problem has been corrected now and the houses being hit just happen to fall into the time period of the problematic design.

In the article I read, there was a reference to an older design with a yellow button that did not trip. The design that was tripping had a white button.

Eaton wanted to solve the problem. It was not the fault of the hams. AARL is an influential organization with labs and Eaton is a respected company. They worked cooperatively.

Even though this has not affected my village, I certainly can understand the aggravation factor. But before getting to the point of Villagers taking up torches and pitchforks and going after hams, I hope someone will bring Eaton into this.

Remember the bad run of shingles a few years back that resulted in roofs being replaced at no cost. Could this be the same kind of thing? Bad timing? Bad run?

And if that is the case and the fault is with Eaton, might they replace that design at no cost?

If the gathered data points to Eaton's design, SECO or warranty needs to contact Eaton. -- Perhaps contact could be made in Morse Code.

Boomer

I admit I have not read every word in every post, but I haven't gotten the impression anyone was going after the ham operators.

Eaton AFCI Type BR

Quote:

Originally Posted by tag460 (Post 1118504)

Summary of a letter from SECO I received today: The problem with breakers tripping appears to be inherent to homes located in Grid Area EL98au-The Villages north of SR44 and south of 466A. The brand of breakers is Eaton AFCI's and were originally installed by the builder and the cause was ham radio equipment. Members who experience AFCI breaker issues repeatedly are encouraged to contact The Villages Home Warranty Department.

I contacted The Villages Home Warranty Department for the second time. The first time I called when this first happen and they could not assist me because my house was over a year old. This time Home Warranty was aware of the problem and they are sending out the Contractor who installed the breakers. I will let you know what Exceptional Electric says.

This is the ARRL post mentioned in Boomers post
ARRL Helps Manufacturer to Resolve Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter RFI Problems

Also agree not the fault of Ham radio operators.

Eaton AFCI circuit breaker type BR appears to carry a ten year warranty. If they are actually defective and involve many (or all) homes south of 466A, I would think that a manufacturers recall would be set up to replace them. Not just done piecemeal for those that report tripping today, but for those that may have the problem when THEIR neighbor takes up the HAM radio hobby in the future. Remember, HAM radios can also be mobile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villager Joyce (Post 1118875)

I admit I have not read every word in every post, but I haven't gotten the impression anyone was going after the ham operators.

Oh my. Certainly not my intention to engage in anything other than trying to help solve this problem in the favor of Villagers affected. It has to be frustrating as all get-out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 1118828)

And now, here I am quoting myself which makes me look pathetic in my need to, for some bizarro reason, take up this cause that is not even affecting my village. But anyway.......

This morning when I wrote the post above, just trying to help, I was not at a computer where I could cite the source of what I am talking about. Now, I am back where I can link anyone interested to the article from the ham national website.

The article is written somewhat in ham-speak so I wrote a little summary in my post above. (I skipped over the ham stuff when I read it.)

Please keep in mind that this article is from 2013. I really think whoever is accumulating the data in an official capacity is the one that needs to contact Eaton to find out if they will help resolve this if the fault, both figuratively and literally, is with their design. I do not think the contact should come from individuals. But maybe SECO or warranty will take up the cause. I already said that, didn't I. Twice before. I think. And this time, the 3rd time, I am citing my source. So just maybe.....

ARRL Helps Manufacturer to Resolve Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter RFI Problems

Boomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiHoSteveO (Post 1118902)

Hi Ho, HiHoSteveO,

While I was posting my follow-up in Post 93 to cite my source, you were posting in Post 92. I did not see your post until after I hit submit.

Thank you, thank you, Kind Sir, for finding my source and posting it. I really do hope the people affected can get a solution that does not cost them anything.

And now, I can move forward with my life. I think somebody finally heard me. :bowdown:

Thank you.

Now Credible Boomer :)

We live in Gilchrist and we had four or five breakers trip yesterday evening for the first time. Another piece to the puzzle of why this is happening.

We had 3 trip last night but we attributed it to the lightening

Quote:

Originally Posted by optv13sp (Post 1119697)

We live in Gilchrist and we had four or five breakers trip yesterday evening for the first time. Another piece to the puzzle of why this is happening.

This is a relatively new problem. So what is new to the area? Maybe it is a ham radio in a truck?
I read and posted #55 that Eaton CFGI breakers have a problem with ham radios. And this video:

demonstrates that at 17 meters the eaton breakers trip. When a ham radio broadcasts they send a signal of a certain length. It's analogous to a channel. 17 meters or channel 17 trips the breakers. The other meters or channels do not.

I just learned that you can have a ham radio in a truck. I thought it was just CB's inside trucks. So that would explain why new folks might be having trouble that never had trouble before. Or the problem comes and goes.

It's just a theory. I don't know how you could stop the ham radios in trucks. And I don't know very much about ham radio or circuit breakers. It's just what I'm learning from poking around on the net.

I know this is a bit off subject....but I am surprised to hear many are surprised to know that HAM radio operators can have mobile units. Over 40 years ago when I was a 16 year old teen, my friend was a ham radio operator. He had a mobile HAM unit in his car that had a telephone patch in it. Mind you....this was YEARS before cellphones. We thought we were hot stuff...actually being able to make phone calls to girls WHILE DRIVING. We were like James Bond. Girls thought we were the coolest. Funny stuff. How times change. We all have cellphones now, and I lost my "coolness" years ago....oh well.

Frank

Smart electric meters can trip afci breakers

Have not noticed this mentioned but the SMART ELECTRIC METERS can cause AFCI breakers to trip.

A couple of articles posted but there are more:

Any smart meter with a AMI7 radio transmitter in it will cause these breakers to trip. Get back to your power company and explain the problem and they have to remove that smart meter and replace it with a Digital meter that doesn't have a radio transmitter in it. It's the burst of RF from the transmitter that triggers the tripping. Is your electrical panel behind the meter base? You will have trouble.

Smart Meters tripping AFCI's - InterNACHI Inspection Forum

Smart Meters tripping AFCI's
Smart meters are now being installed in my area.

Smart meters are starting to trip AFCI's.

As you know, an arc fault breaker looks at an electrical sign wave and figures out what's right and what's not.

When it "see's" the signature of an arc, it trips. RF ( radio frequency) interference has nearly the same electrical signature as an electrical arc.

Guess how the new smart meters talk to the home office? (radio frequency)

Where the electrical panel is located next to the smart meter problems have developed according to my bubba electricians.

This is NOT a builders problem. It is a utility company problem. A builder has no control over a utility company.

Need to be sure the AFCI is tripping due to smart meter and not from electrical work. This can be done by requesting the utility company switch back to a mechanical meter.

What can someone do? Write your congressmen and ask that the utility companies go back to the drawing board. (??)

It is my understanding that PG&E in Ca has already been told by court order to switch back to mechanical meters when someone has problems. More fun to come I am sure.

(No effective RF shield is available that won't also block the RF signal back to "big brother".)

If you inspect homes then this info may be of benefit to your master macro file.

From Smart Meters tripping AFCI's - InterNACHI Inspection Forum Smart Meters tripping AFCI's - InterNACHI Inspection Forum

ADDITIONAL INFO:

Bringing Power and People Together

It looks a little different, but the SmartMeter™ does the exact same job as the analog meters we’re all used to seeing: measuring and recording energy usage. The difference is that SmartMeter™ uses new technology to provide two-way communication between PG&E and your home or business. It periodically transmits readings to PG&E, so you can see your hourly electricity usage online.
Since the communication is two-way, SmartMeters™ can be upgraded remotely, making it quicker and easier to offer future technology upgrades.
Learn about SmartMeter™ benefits
Expand AllCollapse All
Smartmeter TM Eelectric System

Traditional Residential
Electric Meter SmartMeter™ Residential
Electric Meter
The solid-state digital SmartMeter™ electric meter records hourly meter reads and periodically transmits the reads via a dedicated radio frequency (RF) network back to PG&E. Each SmartMeter™ electric meter is equipped with a network radio, which transmits meter data to a electric network access point (pictured below). The system uses RF mesh technology, which allows meters and other sensing devices to securely route data via nearby meters and relay devices, creating a "mesh" of network coverage. The system supports two-way communication between the meter and PG&E.
The electric network access point collects meter data from nearby electric meters and periodically transfers this data to PG&E via a secure cellular network. Each RF mesh-enabled device (meters, relays) is connected to several other mesh-enabled devices, which function as signal repeaters, relaying the data to an access point. The access point device aggregates, encrypts, and sends the data back to PG&E over a secure commercial third-party network. The resulting RF mesh network can span large distances and reliably transmit data over rough or difficult terrain. If a meter or other transmitter drops out of the network, its neighbors find another route. The mesh continually optimizes routing to ensure information is passed from its source to its destination as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Smart Meters

Q) Do you mean smart meters contain an intentional RF transmitter?

A) Sometimes. When a smart meter contains an RF transmitter:

The frequency of operation is typically in the 902 MHz and 2.4 GHz bands.
Power output is typically 1 watt in the 902 MHz band and much less in the 2.4 GHz band.
The intended range of a transmitter in a smart meter is typically very localized. While the utility-side radio needs to reach a neighborhood concentrator, typically mounted on a nearby pole, smart meters can also mesh through other smart meters to communicate with the concentrator. (using five hops or less) See Figure 2.
The smart meter only communicates when it is commanded to do so, typically several times a day.
The smart meter’s transmitter operates under Part 15 of the FCC rules.

NEIGHBORHOOD SMART METER CONCENTRATOR FACTS

Neighborhood-area concentrator at 902 MHz input. This particular concentrator can link up to 1024 smart meters. It uses 902 MHz as the aggregated output "backhaul" to the Network Operations Center (NOC) or another up-stream concentrator before the NOC.

SENSUS is the provider for the Smart Network for SECO and likely should be involved in this problem:

SECO Energy Selects Sensus as Smart Grid Technology Provider | Business Wire

SMART METER AND NEIGHBORHOOD CONCENTRATOR PHOTO BELOW

CLICK PHOTOS TO ENLARGE

Interesting, but it does not appear that SECO is using smart meter technology, I have seen the monthly meter reader several times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by villagetinker (Post 1120125)

Interesting, but it does not appear that SECO is using smart meter technology, I have seen the monthly meter reader several times.

I have been here 4 years in Sanibel and have never seen a SECO meter reader but I cannot say for sure they do not exist. Possibly they are using meter readers until the systems are up and running in the newer areas. I do know their website says all the newer homes back in 2013 will be fitted with smart meters going forward and they awarded a contract to a company to provide the network back in 2011. I do know I have a SMART meter which is the GE I 210, CL200 pictured below. If I have a smart meter and my next door neighbor as well, I can only assume the rest of this area also has similar meters.

SECO Energy Selects Sensus as Smart Grid Technology Provider | Business Wire

Thread from 2013..

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...-meters-67991/

I have the GE Meter I 210, CL200 meter which is clearly identified as a SMART meter...and is pictured in this video and the picture attached below. The narrator is a little intense but the meter pictured is identical and this was in California in 2012.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WeDtQ7sXHU

Click photo to enlarge:

Quote:

Originally Posted by villagetinker (Post 1120125)

Interesting, but it does not appear that SECO is using smart meter technology, I have seen the monthly meter reader several times.

After reading over most of the posts again it appears very likely this is being caused by the SMART meters since the times and locations are so random and spread over a fairly large area. It could still turn out to be a HAM radio but I'm leaning towards the SMART meters. SECO should be addressing this as it will only spread to all the area as more homes are brought on line. SECO needs to identify where the neighborhood concentrators are located and how and when the meters are reporting. The homes where the breakers are tripping may be the reporting meters. It is definitely not going to fix itself and it is unlikely they will just come out and say they were causing it.

Plotting all the addresses where breakers have tripped on a local map would be a good tool to get a clear image of where the areas affected are located. It is possible SECO may have just turned up SMART networks in those areas. They should know if they completed any facilities about the time the breakers started tripping. There are methods to use in narrowing this down but it does take some organization.

Since communication is two way SECO should be able to query the meters on homes where the breakers have tripped and see if it causes the breakers to trip again..

GE identifies the GE I 210, CL 200 meter as a SMART Meter in the PDF which comes up by clicking on this link below. If your meter looks like this meter and has the I 210, CL200 inside the glass like this one in the picture, you have a SMART Meter...

Meters : Products Solutions : GE Digital Energy

I-210+ Value packed Smart Grid functions
World class accuracy and reliability in a solid-state kWh meter platform
package. Available with a service switch, as well as a wide array of
communications options.

https://www.google.com/url? sa=t&rct...u0pMDmyVs2czAA

The meter below which is a SMART Meter is identical to those on mine and my neighbors homes in Sanibel. It has GE I 210 and CL200 inside the glass.

CLICK PHOTO TO ENLARGE

Our power in Gilchrist was an issue last night again. We had a dozen breakers trip. So did our neighbor next door. His wife and my husband were both fresh out of the hospital and it was not only inconvenient but a bit frightening.

I had called home warranty last week and they had Pike electric call us to set a time to replace all our breakers at no cost. They must be backed up with requests, because our appt isn't until Oct 5th.

I just hope we don't lose an expensive appliance, AC, TV or computer due to these frequent outages. We have surge protectors, both whole house and individual, but these frequent outages will eventually fry something expensive, if not corrected.

Pikes told me, when they called, that is if is HAM interference, replacing all the breakers will take care of the problem. But if it continues, then it is something else.

Fingers crossed that changing the breakers will take care of the problem, once and for all!

I recommend that everyone in our area call for the upgraded breakers, or be prepared for some major appliance to be replaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dotti105 (Post 1120142)

Hope it works but I wonder why a particular house or two here and there and not all the others near you? Then also Gilchrist is quite a ways from Sanibel or could be depending on the addresses. Did the homes near your home say across the street also have breakers tripped? Has there been a HAM radio located? Are you near Buena Vista or nearer Bonifay?

HAM radio is an older problem and a lot better known about than the SMART Meters but hopefully they can get to the bottom of it. Possibly even if it is the meters replacing the breakers will be a fix as if they were engineered to withstand HAM radio they maybe will also survive the meters.

Good luck, gotta be aggravating and annoying but your major appliances and AC should not be on AFCI breakers so you should be OK there...

When they spec a house do they identify in the plans the make and model of the circuit breakers and panel for the electrician? Or does the electrician buy breakers and panels that meet the electrical specifications and he selects the brand?