Agreed wholeheartedly
:agree:

so what it is about human nature that some people always need something to complain about?

Inflation Rate
 

If Warren (or anyone else for that matter) was paying $1.00 per hole at Tierra del Sol in 1997, he should be paying $1.45 per hole today based on the rate of inflation since then. For 18 holes, he should be paying $26.10 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol in January 2013 and probably something like $26.50 in January 2014.

Based on the prices announced for winter 2013/2014, a resident member will pay $48.00 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol. A priority member will be paying $33.00 for 18.

While it's true that everything costs more today than it did in 1997, that's a pretty significant increase.

On the other hand, the price of gasoline has risen by 280% in Florida since January 1997. So $1.00 of gas in 1997 costs $2.80 in January 2013. If one applied the gasoline inflation rate to golf, 18 holes at Tierra del Sol would now cost $50.40 - slightly more than the expected cost in the winter of 2013/2014.

If we applied the gasoline inflation rate to everything, none of us could afford to live in The Villages or pretty much anywhere else if we're living on a fixed income.

Warren is definitely on to something.

Personally, I don't agree......there are many other factors that contribute to increased costs....gasoline prices, equipment purchases, repairs, increased cost of irrigation, increased salaries, taxes, insurance, workman' comp., etc. There are many more courses than when Harold was around, much more use of the courses, more time needed to care for and maintain courses and so on and so on.

We all may feel the pinch these days, everything costs more than it did years ago. Years ago we were still complaining that prices were higher than in previous times.....probably going to be a song we'll all be singing, just as those who came before us did...;). It's frustrating....less bang for your buck.....just look at what groceries cost....it's not just recreation costs and it's not just here.

Surely you realize the golf courses serve a single purpose and that purpose was to sell homes. It was true 16 years ago and is true today. I cannot think of many things that have quadrupled in price in 16 years. OK maybe gasoline, but that is like apples and oranges.

No one forces any business to rent at the squares. NO ONE. If they fail it is because they are not selling something someone wants or enough of it to meet expenses. PERIOD. NO one is forced to use the banks. AND they aren't National Banks, They are only HERE. They have so many closings that knowing people who don't care they would be switching closings all of the time IF there wasn't a penalty for doing so. No one in this country has as many closings as The Villages does right now.

I think what is called greed by some is just common every day business practice and if you have not worked in that environment, if you have spent your life in government work or in education than it is unfamiliar. There are many of us who have worked in situations where financial goals are set and sales managers manage. That is called business and free enterprise. If our government would follow some of the practices used here we wouldn't have some of the trouble we are having.

AND YES Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit. You pay your workers and your expenses and buy equipment and feed your own family with the profit. AND if you do it well you make a BIG profit and that employs more people and buys more equipment and opens more places to eat and keeps the economy running.

:popcorn:

When i read your post it sounded word for word what i have always thought. It comes down to supply and demand. I have priority because my wife golfs also and when i do the numbers i break even plus get a better chance in the high season of getting my desired time and course and go to the pools once in a while. As for course conditions in the last few weeks golfed celebration in disney and dell webb. Courses were green with nice grass in rough and fairways. Both places talked to employees who used to work in the villages. They need to water more to get better conditions was their answer. I know sometimes we have restrictions but we don't right now. Also they could punp more from some of the ponds but like the one on baily trail by cane carden, they want that one to look nice for the people driving by. All of this said i can jump in my golf cart during the summer, play at arnold palmer for 6 bucks at twilight and get a 6 dollar burger and fries.:MOJE_whot:

Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that a decision was made several years ago that the championship courses (which are privately owned, by the way) had to be self-sufficient. This implies that they, and the greens fees they charged, were in some way subsidized by the developer as a means to attract buyers for the homes. Once that decision was made, all the costs had to be covered by the fees charged. So, maintenance, insurance, administrative costs, repairs to the clubhouse and restaurant, taxes, range balls, golf carts, salaries, etc. had to be included in determining a greens fee that would cover expenses and make a profit.

I've spoken to people who travel off campus during the high season to take advantage of lower fees. But, when adding the price of gas for the trip, the time spent getting there and back, and using a rental cart that doesn't have the amenities their own cart offers, are they really saving much? So, I think that in some ways we pay for the convenience of having the courses golf cart accessible in our community.

I'm not insensitive to those that moved here with a retirement income that was sufficient at the time but is far less so now. Back in CA we passes Prop 13 in part because people were losing their homes because property taxes were eating up most of their retirement income. Here we've seen growth accompanied by younger retirees with substantial funds at their disposal so the costs of recreation are not a deterrent. And we have vacationers who want to have a good time without too much regard for the cost. I think if the golf fees were too far out of line, play would drop and the powers that be would have to re-evaluate the fee structure. Or would they then just sell the courses to an operator who could make them completely public??? Be careful what you wish for.

It doesn't have to be one thing, Warren, it's the total of "things" that result in increases. Whether you agree or not, everything costs more today than it did when this community was built. Think about the increases you've seen in your own personal expenses. Why doesn't the water or power company just absorb the additional costs of operations so we, the consumers, don't have to suffer an increase in costs?

Golf was an attraction initially and still is a game for many, but today's retiree is younger, more active and wants to stay busy and fit. There are many other activities besides golf here that attract people to TV.

the urban legend that TV rents for commercial establishments is the reason businesses have a hard time being profitable.

Each of the businesses that have signed a lease with TV knew and understood what the rent would be for thier contracted 5 or 10 year lease. When they signed they knew, or should have known what it takes to make a profit.

Most that have failed or moved on was not due to the rent. It was due to the fact they over estimated what they thought they could sell. Or they did not provide the elements of the business magic formula...value, service, quality, response, a product or service TV needs/wants.

When they do fail or close down, it is much easier for the owner to blame it on the rent....than to give the real reasons for not making their vision happen.

The rents TV charges for commercial space is very competitive with most high value shopping areas and retail centers.

The other variable that many are not prepared to deal with is....owning and operating is hard work and long hours.

The above is slightly off topic but related.

We can all talk about the past like a 4 bedroom Georgian colonial two story on a half acre lot .....2700 square feet...two car garage...corian counters...etc....$49,000.....new built....early 1970. That house just sold last year for over $300,000.

TV is simply following (I should say leading) the market and dealing with supply and demand. Do some of you remember when TV could not build enough fast enough? Around 2005/6 when houses were sold lottery style? When one like you wanted came available you got a call and they gave you 72 hours to "take it or leave it"? Those days are coming back.

There is no surprise in the increasing values here in TV....none at all.
There is no surprise in the increasing cost of goods going up....it has been going on all our lives.
There are no disappointed new buyers at what ever the price was yesterday.

Those who are disappointed are the ones who lament how it used to be...like my $49,000 Georgian Colonial!!!

TV will continue to grow and prosper at what ever the market will bear!

btk

The longer we live, the more expensive everything looks. The reality is that preparation for retirement is very important. I remember when my cabe bill was $12.00 a month for no commercials TV. I am on NY and just paid $40.00 for nine holes for a course not near as nice as my free exec courses. I pay $82.00 for 18 on another Town Course.

Agree...well said.

Well said!!!:bigbow:

Don't Base Costs on Championship Golf Fees
 

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

:bigbow: