Originally Posted by Thnonne (Post 681557)

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

Originally Posted by Rc Moser (Post 681685)

.. Want to play? Then, expect to pay out the yang for Cloths, shoes, clubs, balls, Fees, and lunch...basically 250 dollar day unless you're playing at the local cow pasture. ...:

Originally Posted by redwitch (Post 681412)

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer (Post 681353)

I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents.

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter (Post 681430)

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

Originally Posted by njbchbum (Post 681431)

warren - how much do you think you should be paying? and do you think that amount paid by you and all of the other golfers would be sufficient to support the maintenance and management of the golf course and pro shop year round as well as provide a reasonable profit to the developer? or maybe you don't care about that...hard to tell.

Originally Posted by pooh (Post 681513)

It doesn't have to be one thing, Warren, it's the total of "things" that result in increases. Whether you agree or not, everything costs more today than it did when this community was built. Think about the increases you've seen in your own personal expenses. Why doesn't the water or power company just absorb the additional costs of operations so we, the consumers, don't have to suffer an increase in costs?

Golf was an attraction initially and still is a game for many, but today's retiree is younger, more active and wants to stay busy and fit. There are many other activities besides golf here that attract people to TV.

Originally Posted by dianeandcarl (Post 681443)

so what it is about human nature that some people always need something to complain about?

Originally Posted by mikeod (Post 681512)

Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that a decision was made several years ago that the championship courses (which are privately owned, by the way) had to be self-sufficient. This implies that they, and the greens fees they charged, were in some way subsidized by the developer as a means to attract buyers for the homes. Once that decision was made, all the costs had to be covered by the fees charged. So, maintenance, insurance, administrative costs, repairs to the clubhouse and restaurant, taxes, range balls, golf carts, salaries, etc. had to be included in determining a greens fee that would cover expenses and make a profit.

I've spoken to people who travel off campus during the high season to take advantage of lower fees. But, when adding the price of gas for the trip, the time spent getting there and back, and using a rental cart that doesn't have the amenities their own cart offers, are they really saving much? So, I think that in some ways we pay for the convenience of having the courses golf cart accessible in our community.

I'm not insensitive to those that moved here with a retirement income that was sufficient at the time but is far less so now. Back in CA we passes Prop 13 in part because people were losing their homes because property taxes were eating up most of their retirement income. Here we've seen growth accompanied by younger retirees with substantial funds at their disposal so the costs of recreation are not a deterrent. And we have vacationers who want to have a good time without too much regard for the cost. I think if the golf fees were too far out of line, play would drop and the powers that be would have to re-evaluate the fee structure. Or would they then just sell the courses to an operator who could make them completely public??? Be careful what you wish for.

Originally Posted by Thnonne (Post 681557)

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

Originally Posted by Mack184 (Post 681710)

WOW..You need to wake up from your pipe dream. NOBODY unless they are an idiot or are running a hobby goes into business without the intent of making a profit. Google Harold Schwartz and read about him. He was a lifetime salesman..and a DAMN good one. Sales people are motivated by one thing and one thing only...CASH. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy, but if you believe that this guy was just doing something out of the goodness of his heart you are quite sadly mistaken. Profit was ALWAYS the motive and it still is and there is NOTHING wrong with that. So if you don't want to play on the free courses, just cough up your money and get on with it.

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer (Post 681744)

Every outside course I used as an example of having lower greens fees than the Villages ARE PRIVATELY OWNED. The Villages championship courses are just as much public as most local courses. You must know our courses are completely public and anyone can play them.

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer (Post 681738)

My original posting was a simple statement. WHY IS GOLF MORE EXPENSIVE FOR RESIDENTS HERE IN THE VILLAGES THAN IS IS FOR THEM TO PLAY NEARLY EVERY OUTSIDE COURSE WITHIN 50 MILES???????