It seems that the focus of people interested in this issue ought not to be on focusing on details of the history of the lawsuit. Instead, it ought to be on trying to find a way to get the Developer to change his mind and keep the LLLC open. In reality, there is not too much that we, acting individually, can do to make that happen.

However, one thing that we could do: those of us who happen to know any of the plaintiffs could ask them to do the right thing and withdraw from the lawsuit in light of the tragedy that it is causing to our community.

They will not withdraw. On 12/16/2016 their appeal will be heard at the 11th. Circuit Court in Atlanta.
It is case No. 16-11122. I phoned the court's clerk asking for help in accessing the brief. She said I had to either come in person or subscribe to a service called Pacer, which is relatively costly.
So, if there is a Villages resident with access to Pacer, might he/she post a link to the brief?

We must keep informed and band rogether to prevent the demise of the Lifelong Learning College.

We were not kept out of the loop - TV or any other prudently run organization will never discuss any legal issues that they are a party too. I understand that you might want public opinion to influence or sway the outcome, but it just does not work that way. TV and its many business entities probably have dozens of pending lawsuits at any one time on a variety of topics. You never discuss them in public. I'm guessing that the plaintiffs were advised not to go public because they know public sentiment would not be on their side. Have you seen one post that sides with the plaintiffs?

Don't know about legal standing, but if the plaintiffs win, then you can't sue them since the courts agreed with their position. If the school wins, then, as you say, we focus on a replacement for the LLC. I'm guessing we focus on a replacement system either way.

Resident Lifestyle Group.
 

http://www.districtgov.org/images/activity-release.pdf

This covenant not to sue might be of interest. Resident Lifestyle Group is abbreviated RLG. It is a voluntary group and does not bring in a state action or business act which you usually need to sue for discrimination of some kind. They can chose whomever they want really to be in this private group in theory anyway.

Though I don't know the details of what prompted these people to file this suit, there are numerous disabled persons, myself included who have enjoyed and benefited from these classes, trips, etc. It is so sad to see that we will all suffer because something wasn't PERFECT enough for you! It sounds like you never came to terms with your disability and learned to make modifications and accommodations so that you can enjoy your life and remain humble. This is a community of aging adults, many with disabilities and we all know we can't do everything like we used to, may never be able to do all the activities in The Villages, or take every single class offered in all classrooms, but we take pleasure in watching other's try something new, learn something new, and sometime, we just SMILE and are content: watching.

These are usually meant for the lawyers and parties to the case or law students. They can be pricey.

If any of the plaintiffs signed this, it might be grounds for a countersuit for breach. If so, the court might award both sides equal damages, which I believe would leave the lawyers out in the cold---I'm brokenhearted over THAT.

Being a new member (of talk of the villages) & new homeowner in the Villages, I thought I'd check back to see if the insanity had stopped. I would think Mr. Schwarz and the others would rethink their lawsuit and withdraw it. I can't imagine they truly felt they had the right to punish the thousands and thousands of residents that have enjoyed the LLC all these years. This was one of the selling points when we chose to come here, not only are there clubs and rec centers, but there are classes that are offered primarily to Villages residents. They were affordable, fun and contained quite a variety of topics. I looked forward to that catalog to be able to choose things that were of an interest to me and again, were affordable. A lot of times, you could sign up for a class at the LLC in advance of joining a club, so you could ensure you'd enjoy the topic and join the club with some level of knowledge, so as not to burden everyone in the club with trying to catch up. This might have a ripple effect now on the membership and enjoyment of our clubs. That is, until 'they' choose to appeal that part of the lawsuit and try again, to attack the clubs. Please Mr. Schwarz and all the others - rethink your actions and stop/withdraw this lawsuit! This can't possibly be what you wanted.......

South Florida leads nation in controversial disability lawsuits - tribunedigital-sunsentinel

There seem to be these get rich quick attorneys in Florida too with the ADA filings.

Remember the case we have here involving the Villages is a Federal case not a Florida case. These involve different judges, juries and the like. I had Federal Jury Duty for an employment discrimination case involving a Claremont Police Department Officer who wanted to write his reports in Spanish. There was more to the case than that. This was in 2009. The jury found for the police department. I got bumped off the Jury Panel when the judge thought I was hiding something for the court. Which I was but that is another story.

The Federal Court Building is in Ocala.

Seems Schwarz has a propensity for suing. Here's a letter to the editor he wrote on November 13 about speed bumps. He states in his last sentences about suing the District Development because he can!

To the Editor:
I choose to write the better solution, which may be better or unacceptable.
I notice that none has mentioned the rumble strips. First of all, speed bumps, do not effectively reduce speeds and can prove hazardous. Why? They often increase their speed after stopping at the speed bumps! However, obviously, on the multi-modal paths, the current speed bumps are causing pain and injury to some Villagers with disabilities, especially in the golf carts (as compared to automobiles). The devices limit their access to public rights-of-ways, guaranteed under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).
Why not using the rumble strips (intermittent series of small bumps across the path) (with gaps for cyclists) – this idea merely to warn the golf cart drivers to slow down.
Our Villages representatives need to listen to us, people with disabilities. We can sue the District dovernment for the ADA violations! Why not?

Louis Schwarz
Village of Largo

Unbelievable

Given the potential legal liability it's unrealistic to ask or expect the Developer to "change his mind." I wouldn't do that and I don't think you would either

Solving this problem is now up to the 120,000 residents (less 32 ) ... I also think obtaining legal representation at this point is only prudent

How dare they!
 

How dare the handicapped think they are as good or entitled as the rest of us! Those deplorables need to be shipped out of state. The ADA is just like the Right to Vote law, completely not needed.

Sorry, no sale. Congratulations on a completely idiotic post.

:undecided: Have we figured out if DeafDeaf is Mr. Schwarz? I find it strange he was on TOTV today and did NOT post anything!


:grumpy: IMHO the man hates the world. DeafDeaf page: https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...eafdeaf-15127/ :read:

:censored:picture of Mr. Schwarz is in Post #106 of this thread.

Not attempting to sell you anything. Was trying to get you to THINK. Some people will never understand there are two sides to every issue.

If you take the time to read my previous posts, you'd find I would support the idea of ASL interpreters for those classes that are attended by severely hearing impaired individuals fluent in ASL. I also support REASONABLE accommodations for other types of disabilities. I do not support ruining a valuable amenity for 120,000 people because of 32, especially since it is becoming increasingly clear that the plaintiffs are not seeking ability to participate, but rather punitive damages.

If you were truly trying to provoke thought, I apologize. But you might consider a less sarcastic tone to accomplish that goal.

According to TOTV, the individual with that screen name is on the site an on this thread. I would love to hear his/her side of this. Specifically, at the beginning of this, what accommodation were you seeking that the LLLC did not offer to provide. They claim, in the DS, that they offered everything reasonable. I assume you feel differently since a lawsuit was subsequently filed. If you could state your case, you might get some more sympathy if reasonable accommodations were not offered

Litigious America
60 Minutes - ADA.

From the top down.

Well put Golfing Eagle!

... and how DARE you come on this site with that attitude!
We have just come off a 12 day cruise. Among the passengers were two young blind people with their dogs (where do they relieve themselves at sea and who cleans up after them), dozens of people in wheel chairs that need to be helped on and off the ship whenever they go ashore, more people than we could count on electric riders to help them get around - and the rest of us offered our assistance to these disabled people in order that they could enjoy their vacation too.

Don't preach to us about being disabled, there are very few people in this world that cannot reach out and touch a relative with a disability.

Yes in the thread CathieI links, DeafDeaf has the last post in which he states he is a Deaf advocate etc so yeah that is probably Schwarz and he has probably checking out this tread today.

What is weird is that everyone in that thread who responded kept asking DeafDeaf what exactly would make him happy and he never really answers the question, but it appears that he thinks that profession paid sign language interpreters should be available for every LLC class. That's what he thinks is a reasonable accommodation. Not sure how many classes there are per day but obviously would cost quite a bit of money.

DeafDeaf thread from 2011

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...ditatio-42266/

read all the posts especially the last one

Agree with contacting Orlando paper. Maybe they can weed through all the legalese, BS, and stir up the truth.

Also agree with other posters regarding 60 Minutes program last night. What I find (from the program) absolutely unfair is that a business doesn't have to have any customer complaints about an ADA issue for the business owner to be sued by some lawyer who just happens to notice an infraction and worse yet, recruit handicapped individuals to be plaintiffs!

it's interesting but if you read about deaf culture, those that believe that Deaf with a capital D denotes someone who feels that deafness is a distinct culture, with it's own language. They consider English not their native language which is one reason they resist speech to text as a solution. one site even said this:The term “hearing-impaired” is seen even more negatively because that says there is something wrong with being Deaf (which is the complete opposite of what Deaf people believe!) Most hearing people believe that deafness is a handicap. But, au contraire! It indeed, is not. Deaf people can do everything except hear. Everything! Deafness is not a handicap.

so if one believes that, then asking for an interpreter is akin to someone who only speaks French to demand an interpreter. Apparently, it's a handicap when it's beneficial.

It's the hypocrisy of all this that bothers me. I think anyone here would have been desirous of having this settled reasonably to accommodate our fellow Villagers. but refusing to consider any concession at all because the law is on your side, no matter the consequences, and demanding money is being as thoughtless to others as we have been accused of being.

I hate all this because I don't want to be angry and resentful to anyone and yet I find myself feeling that.

Nothing fuels this more than the lack of information we've been given by both sides in this dispute. All we have are the consequences. Please everyone, give us more information.

Basis
 

Given the prior writers point is there a cause to institute a counter lawsuit defending the Villages position? It is hard to get any relief when you are arguing a case without the appropriate and strong legal counsel. :cold:

Lifelong College
 

[QUOTE=villagetinker;1328437]HenryK, you beat me to the list, thank you.

It is too bad that there was no middle ground on this, for example, having a few sign language personnel available for classes IF REQUESTED, or something similar. I know my wife is very disappointed as she had just signed up for the second and third classes for some art classes. I had looked at several classes, and was considering teaching 1 or 2 classes, OH WELL.


Response to all of this. Thanks all for your input here on TOTV. OK, I was teaching Engineering Classes in California. Not to toot my own horn but consider this: There would always be a Sign Person in the room during certain lectures. For each class, I would make up "Extra Info" Sheets. This meant, hints on all homework, a short clarification of all lectures on a separate piece of paper, I would give those to the Interpreter and also file them in a "Read Only Folder" at the library, any student could read them, but the impaired students always thanked me for them. My office hours were open extra time for any impaired student and the Interpreter. My syllabus clearly defined every homework assignment, every quiz and every test. The syllabus was handed out first day of class, to the student(s) and to the Interpreter and I loaned a text on the subject to the Interpreter. I assure you this worked fine. One student from Mexico assured me his family were very high level in Soltillo Coahuila and he insisted that I keep his address and offered me to visit and really have a good time with my wife at their home, anytime. I still have that address but did not go there. This was not a bribe, he did this only after final grades were submitted. I had several ADA students and in fact the Dean sort of edged them to me for their coursework. You can make this work, I do believe.

bbbbbb chilout

I tend to be an optimist, so here it goes: Wouldn't it be better for everyone if we could leave the lawyers and the media out of all this. Get 3 plaintiffs, 3 representatives of the LLLC and 3 from the VCDDs, and 3 residents who have taken multiple courses at the LLLC together and have a civilized discussion and try to find a solution. IF the plaintiffs are still as reasonable as they portrayed themselves in the 2011 thread, and IF the VCS is still willing to provide reasonable accommodations, it could work.

That being said, I doubt any of the lawyers involved would ever consider letting their clients participate. But if this is truly about fair access to activities and what is best for the community, the WHOLE community, then screw the lawyers and do the right thing

Perhaps if you were more open minded you would have understood what I was attempting to say. But I was happy to hear of your delightful cruise and all of the other people such as your self who participated.

As to an earlier message, yes, I was speaking sarcastically but I did not refer to anyone as an idiot simply because I did not agree with his/her opinion. I shall not utilize sarcasm again as apparently it flies over the heads of so many.

I agree .. so few take so much away from the many. I wonder if those in the law suit have any idea the animosity and deprivation of great learning opportunities that they have created?
Being a Village resident, I know that The Villages make every attempt to accommodate everyone.

I like optimism as much as the next person, but I think your proposed solution, while perhaps noble, is unrealistic. It won't work.

Some type of legal representation, and in line with what PennBF suggests, is now needed to defend the interests of 120,000 people. I also think it's now up to us, not the Developer, to take action. I suggest the POA but there may be other ways to better achieve two objectives.

The two objectives are: 1) restoration or creation of LLLC in some form or fashion ...someone will have to take the lead to run with this but I'm sure will get lots of offer of help, and 2) legal counsel hired to provide protection of the RLGs, Clubs etc from future legal threats from disaffected people, while working out reasonable accommodations in accordance with the law and, hopefully, common sense. (the latter may be a stretch).

Hopefully the POA will enter the fray.( if they haven't already )

It may have already been said somewhere in the previous 430 posts but the Schwarz lawsuit has the potential of forever changing The Villages. The retired lawyers on this forum can shed some light on the theory that as the college goes so does the 2500 clubs.

If a club can afford to have a deaf interpreter at each meeting, they might live. But the other 2490 clubs will go the way of the dinosaur. No deaf interpreter standing next to the bands at the squares will probably lead to their extinction as well.

I don’t golf. My main, or only, reason for a TV retirement is the clubs, allowing me to live the active lifestyle I seek. I will take a step back and wait for Mr. Schwarz’s next move against The Villages before I move forward with a lot reservation.

I know the Villages Sun keeps "bad" news away from us, but why were we not aware of this while it was happening?!!! We needed the scoop on this throughout. Some of us have friends with hearing disabilities and might have offered suggestions other than CLOSING THE SCHOOL! How is that going to cure a problem? I too will sincerely miss the LLLC. We need more information because I now fear discrimination against those hearing impaired because of this.

It seems that after 8 years and no satisfaction to Mr Schwarz,and company,
I feel he is not being "Reasonable" in what his definition of Reasonable Accommodation means. If he is so sorry the LLC had to close, he should have been aware of " Be careful of What you ask for" you might not like the answer. Now we all have to suffer in The friendliest Community in Florida.

If you read the post again, I did not call you an idiot, I said your post was idiotic. HUGE DIFFERENCE. I'm sure out of 4000+ posts I've thrown some out there that were idiotic as well. Your sarcasm can be misinterpreted if your underlying position is not clear. Certainly, the same exact same post could have been made by someone who is as deeply committed to deaf rights as the plaintiffs.

Is this all part of the National Association of the Deaf vs Harvard and MIT lawsuit? Those schools both offered free online content and this Reuters article talks about the case and also the bad transcription in closed captioning: Lawsuits say Harvard, MIT webcasts leave out deaf Americans
| Reuters. This sounds suspiciously like what was mentioned in the case involving the Lifelong Learning Colleges. If The Villages case is a small subset of a bigger lawsuit against similar educational opportunities, it puts a whole other spin on this and may be why no one can get any sense of what these 32 specifically want as a resolution. What if they don't really want a simple resolution but want to prove a point nationally?

I firmly believe that if anyone had a legitimate requirement to take a few courses, most everyone here would understand and would have been happy to help find simple solutions. I am very afraid that this is NOT the case. If a very small group of people are using this as a platform for a larger movement, I find it tragic that the rest of our retirement community, along with the employees and teachers of the College, have to bear the brunt of their actions. According to the link to the case that has been posted earlier, they were asking for damages. Why ask for damages if you are a simple retiree just wanting to take a few classes with the rest of us? Why hire a cadre of big out of state lawyers? Because the College was associated with the charter school, their first priority is to the young students and not to the College. Tragic, tragic if we find out that a very few have pushed a private agenda only to prove a point on a larger stage.

Thanks for the link, very interesting.

If this guy Schwarz is a Villager, why doesn't he show up as a home owner in Sumter, Marion or Lake Counties?

His property may be deeded to a family trust that does not include his name in the name of the trust.