Just the Facts in the Lifelong Learning Center Case
 

Here is the LLC Case documents. In the final section we see what is "ORDERED". I don't see where the LLC lost. Any retired lawyers out there who can explain this to us?

SCHWARZ v. THE VILLAGES CHARTER SCHOOL, INC. | Case No. 5:12-cv-177-Oc-34PRL. | Leagle.com

Link doesn't work.

SCHWARZ v. THE VILLAGES CHARTER SCHOOL, INC. | Case No. 5:12-cv-177-Oc-34PRL. | Leagle.com. See if this works.

I'll concede that any professional has multiple motivations to do what they do. Prestige, fame, a sense of accomplishment and all the other things you mention are certainly applicable. But the number one reason for a case such as this has got to be money. Why else would a law firm accept a massive undertaking on a contingency basis only, if they did not anticipate a huge pay day down the road. Besides, all the other motivating factors, if realized, add to the firm's earning power in the future.

yes, they are
 

I would argue that NFL players are motivated by the money. Sure they may love the game, but it wreaks havoc on their health.

I actually spent 3 days in law school before I realized it wasn't for me. The first day, the teacher came in and wrote on the board 1/3. He said that is the amount the lawyer gets in a law suit. I believe that was the first thing he told the class.

I believe there are good lawyers out there...the ones that take pro bono cases and those that work for legal aid. But huge law firms such as the one in this lawsuit are financially motivated.

I spent ten days at BYU Law School in 1982. Was there on a Merit Scholarship for non-Mormons. Dropped out. Then went to get speech training at the University of Nevada, Reno. And journeyed to the University of Denver to get a MA in Librarianship and Information Management in May of 1984. Eventually went back to law school at the U of MN (Class of 1989) to become a law librarian and fight for more practical materials in libraries for victims/survivors of crimes of all kinds. A struggle I have had to do since mid 1991 from outside of law librarianship looking in after the powers that be blacklisted me. Mainly so that the money could keep coming into these big law firms who have control of the conversation along with the conservatism of the legal profession. I had to enlist everyone I could think of to change that conversation by bringing in people from many disciplines and many walks of life. Movie stars, writers, comedians, singers, celebrities, scholars, social workers, psychiatrists, CEOs, victim/witness assistance providers, police, etc. My main motivation in this was to help survivors/victms of crimes due to a long history of personal experiences with victims/survivors of crimes. I have communicated with a lot of lawyers since 1991 about this work and with some who have been real a-holes about this; many have not. For instance, some of my fellow Law Student Class of 1989 members have not been all that friendly. And some incredibly creative hurdles have been thrown up against me over the past almost 26 years.

It is so sad that the wishes of a handful of people (especially the one man who has a history of filing lawsuits) can disrupt the lives of hundreds of people. I have heard from some of the teachers at the LLLC that the man signed up for classes and an interpreter was hired for him and then he did not show up for the classes. It seems that money is the main reason for this suit.

Fixed. Thank you.

In that case they should have sent him a bill for the interpreters services. It wouldn't fly, but it would send a message.

Interesting
 

In a number of notes the term "motivation" is mentioned regarding this case. The teaching of some motivational experts is that only 2 things will significantly motivate. They are "challenge" and "recognition/reward". Of course there are other motivations but these are the most significant if you want to motivate people. This clearly meets these qualifiers. This is probably a very challenging suit on both sides and the recognition and rewards are apparently very significant. In the case of The Village's and it's residents it is restoring the Learning Center as a challenge and receiving the residents recognition for achieviing that result. In the case of the Law Firm it could be allegedly both monetary and internal success by the attorney's, in the case of the Plaintiff it may be allegedly recognition by the other deaf persons or beating the Villages. All of this is an open for discussion?:shrug:

Does anyone really believe that TV attorneys have not put together a dossier on his postings and behavior? His Face Book page, his past history of law suits, and on and on, is all there for anyone to see and use. Have a little faith in your fellow man.

In my opinion the ADA needs tweaking.
I have two questions
1. I know certain things are required to be available to the disabled, but does it state that it has to be FREE, that the theater, ensue, class, etc, MUST pick up the expense?

2.
Can anyone sue if their needs are not met? I was under the impression that the venue could be FINED , but this 60 Minute story (that I heard about, I did not watch it) and the LLLC closure has really opened my eyes and shocked the crap out of me. I didn't realize individuals could sue for money.
Too bad 18,000 of us can't be outside the court in atlanta when the next phase is in front of a judge.

I also wonder how much of a could shoulder the plaintiffs are getting from residents now. might be time for him to find a new community to sue.

I don't want to start a new thread, but I am afraid this will get buried with so many responses in this post

There will be a meeting at Laurel Manor with regard to the closing of TV College. I will get back to everyone with more info on this!! How can 20 people put a legal suit in who never attended this College and win. The person responsible did the same thing in Treasure Island. I hope we have a large turnout of all people not just members of the POA. Please get the word out to everyone to get to this meeting. Thank you. B Nuccio

This question has already been beaten to death in the original thread on this subject.

But in a nutshell: The LLC is not a separate entity or a party to the lawsuit. The LLC is merely the name under which the charter school conducts adult education. The charter school has not lost the lawsuit, and the lawsuit did not "force" the closure of the LLC, as the December 2nd Daily Sun headline falsely claimed. Since the charter school runs the LLC and the developer controls the charter school, the LLC was closed because of a decision by the developer to discontinue adult education in this community. The present lawsuit will continue despite the closure.

Unless the developer changes his mind about adult education, it seems unlikely that merely transferring adult education to the VCCDD will result in resurrection of the program. This is because the VCCDD would run the same risk of liability as was the charter school. But we can hope.

Are you going to tell us the date and time of the meeting, who is running it, and what the agenda is? Most importantly, is there going to be somebody there with facts about the situation--beyond the sketchy ones that were published in the Daily Sun--and with some concrete proposal to convince the developer to change his mind about ceasing adult education in The Villages?

Dec 20. 7:00. Pm
POA is running the meeting
I don't know anything else. I would keep up with newspapers

The Plot Thickens!

I have contacted Garrett Morris from SNL fame to help me absorb everything spoken during the meeting. Check him out on Youtube. I'll pick up the tab if he can make it. It's the holiday's, we have to lighten up a bit.

The plaintiff attorneys asked for attorney fees in their pleadings which is usually the case.

We can't paint with a broad brush but Law Firms are all about billable hours. Its like working for the mob you better be an earner or else.

L

That's true but this Deaf Interest section of this Law Firm may be under some kind of different set of Law Firm rules.

I knew if I had been hired by a law firm I would have had to work eighty hour weeks or so. At least that was the idea up to the first round of law exams that First Year of law school. I made an incredibly bad choice with study mate that First Year and it got a lot worse before it got better.

If it wouldn't fly, then why would you try to bill him??????????

as stated, to send a message

Trying to Nucky. Lighten up that is.

Tal,

I believe this particular law firm is engaged in filing ADA lawsuits over a wide geographical area. We see such law firms advertise often on television. Speaking of which a number of the attorneys I worked with, at the time, believed the ruling on lawyers ability to advertise on television, etc would diminish the status of their profession.

How true. In medicine, the caveat is "primum non nocere"---"first do no harm". Perhaps some lawyers should adopt that philosophy. If you have a wart on your little finger, we don't treat it by cutting your arm off. Yet that has been the effect this lawsuit has had on the LLLC. At least in medicine, the anus doesn't get envious of the heart, and when the anus finds out it can't pump blood, it shuts the heart down.

ADA Defense Attorney | Law Offices of Nolan Klein

There are ADA defense lawyers too.

I still see that this was two parties in a ****ing contest getting the community showered because of their pride. I do not have all the facts related to this ADA case. Something from my life is instructive though. I remember being threatened with a lawsuit in Palm Harbor for pointing out that the Library where I had volunteered no longer had a link to the Florida Victim Services Directory. It had for most of the three years I volunteered there. They did have one to the Lemon Laws. So I get this certified letter which basically amounted to a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation (SLAPP) threat. This was on behalf of the Library Director Gene Coppola who was also either the Chairman of the Palm Harbor Chamber of Commerce or the former Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce. The letter was dated 3-2-2004. A day easy for me to remember as it is the birthday of one of my nieces.

I wanted to fight this with every fiber in my body but my Mom was still volunteering at the Palm Harbor Library and we had soon after that decided to move to the Villages.

I had to swallow my pride and drop any idea of fighting this SLAPP threat. I did e-mail everyone I could think of about this abuse of position and outright lying about the link to the Florida Victim Services Directory.

I did not though start ****ing on my community in a contest with Gene Coppola over who was right. Plus I put all my resources into my international 224 613 Project and could not afford to be embroiled with some local turkey making sure he picked up all the seeds he wanted.

Gene Coppola would eventually become the President of the Florida Library Association and I would continue to be censored in some form of another about this whole SLAPP threat of March 2, 2004.

I do hope that there will be some successful replacement of the Lifelong Learning College as it is beloved by many of the Villagers. But, the developers will still have to make sure they thwart off future lawsuits from those with ADA related complaints. Gene Coppola did put in some kind of useful materials for victims/survivors of crimes on the Palm Harbor Library web-site to stop any criticism from me or my many followers in my 224 613 Project. And we lived in Palm Harbor for nine years from 1996 through 2005 and many of the documents in my Project have a Palm Harbor address. Only one or two have Villages' address.

Just thought this letter story would be instructive on how we should work together in this community rather than letting our egos take over and things winding up that no one wins especially not the people most affected by the battle of wills. The Lifelong Learning College students and teachers in this community here in the Villages. Survivors/victims of crimes in Palm Harbor, Florida.

First thing they are taught in law school is how to calculate billable hours. Second thing they learn is to tell you that you can't lose. Third thing they learn is how to settle the case, you could not lose, in the court hallway.


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I do not remember any of that. First thing they teach you at BYU and the U of MN Law Schools was how to make a fool of yourself after opening your mouth after the Law Professor starts pushing your logic in a direction you do not want it to go using the "Socratic Method". They do talk a lot about how much money some of you are going to make which for some of my U of MN Law School Class of 1989 is very true. Some are millionaires. And some are dead from stress or other related medical issues. None of the law schools though I attended ever talked about practical stuff all that much. You are supposed to pick that up in the law firm where you work or in the Legal Clinics often run by practicing attorneys. Every law school is different though to some extent from another.

Sounds like some of your classmates remembered it :shocked:

JK

One built one of the best immigration firms on the West Coast with her name first on the masthead. She is a Super Lawyer too. Way to go MJ. She worked her way through law school waiting tables and doing other stuff. Miss her friendship at times. I am sure she bills her corporate clients quite heftily. More power to her.
She has come a long way since defending prisoners across the hall from me in Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners.

Few of them were nominated to 24 Marquis Who's Who publications from 1992 through 2002 like me and almost none of them will be something of a mystery for a very long time because of my international 224 613 Project and how many people I have gotten involved in it since 1991. Some people work for others in different ways than traditional legal representation. And I am a Law Librarian by training and inclination; not a lawyer.

MJ does some educating in her community about immigration and the rights of immigrants so she does also give back to the people who have made her very well off. If she reads this in the future. Congrats!!!

Prepare
 

Some things to think about. Allegedly a top law firm, (e.g. on Wall Street, etc) will never ask a question that they don't already know the answer to and have proof what the answer or expected response should be. They do their home work. Allegedly they will have cross examine books which contain the question, the expected answer and the proof of the expected answer. They will prepare their witnesses and can include extraordinary number of points to remember when and if they are deposed. Allegedly they may have experts prepare court documents which are experts in writing the documents. Their attorneys may be experts or really excellent in certain areas, (e.g. cross examinations, specific issues in the case, etc etc.)
The purpose in writing this is to ask if the Village's Counsel's are as well prepared to have the case result in a decision that would reopen the school? Allegedly these firms are outstanding and will win most cases as their opposing attorney's are no where near prepared and have sources that are experts in a number of area's. I am hopeful The Village's have top attorneys representing them so the playing field is level. :ho:

Well said. This firm probably does have a lot of proprietary books and the like for everything that works with ADA complaints and that which does not. I have always hoped that some law firms will make works like this more accessible to lay people. Some law firms are doing this now it seems like from their web-sites I have looked at and especially law professor blogs. It is kind of liked getting a beloved chef to give up some of her recipes. Some will do it on occasion; others will never do it.

This was something in law school too. Access to Law Review outlines of various courses kind of made it quite easier to get good grades in the classes they covered. But such access was guarded very well. You still had to work your butt off but it was a lot easier to figure out what the Professor was looking for from the insider information provider by the Law Review course outlines. I got one for a Tax Course for instance that even helped me to do fairly well on the Tax Section of the Minnesota Bar Exam.

Penn BFF- No mater how much they prepare, they still don't win all their cases. I am sure the Villages has competent legal representation, it was safer (less chance to incur expense) to close the school than to pursue a decision in court. It seems they dragged it out as long as they could (4 years) giving Schwarz an opportunity to reconsider his position, but the jackass would not, and thus they felt compelled to close the school to avoid the chance of a loss in court (precedence for future litigation?).

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Sorry for the extra F!

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We do not really know if Schwarz calls all the shots among these 32 plaintiffs or so. My experience with groups like this is that they are often at cross purposes much like you see on TOTV. Their lawyers probably control a lot of what goes on in their interactions. The lawyers would see potential deep pockets in the Villages' developers and those others named in the lawsuit. Lawyers' greed has probably played a big part in drawing this lawsuit out for as long as it has. They have also put a great deal of work into this effort so would probably want to see a win.

Of Course
 

Of course they don't win all the cases but you can rest assure they win the majority because of preparation and organization and experts in certain fields. I worked for a few years with one of the very top law firms on Wall Street and am pretty familiar with their practices how they prepare and what to expect. :ohdear:

My roommate for a short time at the U of MN Law School-- Doug L.,-- worked in a Wall Street Law Firm the Summer of 1988. Not sure which one. He seemed to love it. He has a photographic memory so it was probably fairly easy for him.

Our clinic-- Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners-- had guidebooks and the like for various kinds of cases which made things a lot easier when representing prisoners. I would assume Wall Street firms have many such guidebooks about what works in cases and what does not.

I'm a lawyer and have looked over the court decision on the motion for summary judgment.

Would somebody please explain to me how closing the LLC is going to end the lawsuit, as is often asserted in this thread. I just don't understand it. The LLC is not a defendant and does not even exist as a separate entity.

"The Villages Lifelong Learning College" is merely a fictitious name, registered to the Charter School, under which the Charter School conducts adult education classes. Ceasing to provide those classes will not stop the plaintiffs from claiming damages for the alleged past violations of the ADA. All it will do is prevent liability to the School for alleged FUTURE violations-- but the lawsuit against the Charter School will continue, unless the plaintiffs (and their attorneys) have a change of heart for some reason. That seems unlikely since they they are clearly after the money they hope to be awarded. But maybe the community outrage that is building over their lawsuit will cause at least some of the plaintiffs to rethink what they are doing and withdraw.

I will also be interested in seeing how it is possible that transferring adult ed to the VCCDD would avoid the same kind of risk of lawsuits under the ADA that confronted the Charter School. The decision to have the VCCDD run the risk will require a change of heart by the Developer, who, after all, really made the decision to shut down the LLC. Why would he feel differently if the VCCDD (which he controls) is running risk instead of the School that he also controls.

In this regard, realize that the December 2 Daily Sun headline stating that the lawsuit "forced" the closure is misleading. School systems throughout the country conduct adult ed classes despite the risk of ADA lawsuits. There is no real reason why the Charter School here could not also do so if so inclined. The closure was a result of a decision by the Developer. You can argue about whether or not it was justified under the circumstances.

In the end, the real solution to this kind of problem is to amend the ADA in order to stop this kind of lawsuit from even be brought. However, that is a long run solution. And, in the long run, we're all dead.

I'm a lawyer and have looked over the court decision on the motion for summary judgment.
I'm not a lawyer, but here is my $0.02

Would somebody please explain to me how closing the LLC is going to end the lawsuit, as is often asserted in this thread. I just don't understand it. The LLC is not a defendant and does not even exist as a separate entity.
I completely agree with this assertion.

"The Villages Lifelong Learning College" is merely a fictitious name, registered to the Charter School, under which the Charter School conducts adult education classes. Ceasing to provide those classes will not stop the plaintiffs from claiming damages for the alleged past violations of the ADA. All it will do is prevent liability to the School for alleged FUTURE violations-- but the lawsuit against the Charter School will continue, unless the plaintiffs (and their attorneys) have a change of heart for some reason. That seems unlikely since they are clearly after the money they hope to be awarded. But maybe the community outrage that is building over their lawsuit will cause at least some of the plaintiffs to rethink what they are doing and withdraw.
Agreed, closing the LLC only stops the potential of future violations/issues. The courts will decide if there were past violations and if so, what the penalties are. Closing the LLC also gets public sentiment on your side "to try the case in the court of public opinion" and potentially influence the plaintiffs to drop the case

I will also be interested in seeing how it is possible that transferring adult ed to the VCCDD would avoid the same kind of risk of lawsuits under the ADA that confronted the Charter School. The decision to have the VCCDD run the risk will require a change of heart by the Developer, who, after all, really made the decision to shut down the LLC. Why would he feel differently if the VCCDD (which he controls) is running risk instead of the School that he also controls.
My understanding is that the RLG's are exempt from the ADA and RA requirements (correct me if I'm wrong). So, all of the classes would/could be reorganized as RLG's.

In this regard, realize that the December 2 Daily Sun headline stating that the lawsuit "forced" the closure is misleading. School systems throughout the country conduct adult ed classes despite the risk of ADA lawsuits. There is no real reason why the Charter School here could not also do so if so inclined. The closure was a result of a decision by the Developer. You can argue about whether or not it was justified under the circumstances.
Again, just my speculation, but the closure was done primarily to get public outcry. You have already read that they are trying to create LLC 2.0


The curious thing to watch is if the school wins on all counts, will the LLC reopen in the same structure as before?

There are many political aspects of this case as well as public relations and marketing of the Villages.

One thing. We should continue to fight to get something like the Lifelong Learning College back with reasonable accommodations for the deaf and others who need some kind of special assistance or equipment. And the size of the Villages makes it very reasonable that people will listen to us especially politicians and certainly in 2017. If you want to stand up to a bully go get a troop of bigger bullies to help you out. I learned that in Junior High School. Made friends with a bigger Paiute when a smaller Paiute threatened me with a knife. The unfairness of the knife angered the bigger Paiute. Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe

With my 224 613 Project too I tried to enlist a more powerful group of people to help me take a stand against the gross injustices I started to experience in 1991 while trying to be honest with potential employers about my experiences dealing with the 2-24-1976 murder investigation in the slaying of Michelle Mitchell near the University of Nevada, Reno campus. I was a student of her mother Barbara Mitchell at Earl Wooster High School at that time in Reno, Nevada. 2-24 is also my birthday. I met a lot of people interested in this murder investigation or who had some connection to it. Gypsy Hill Murder Suspect Charged Nearly 40 Years After Killings | NBC Bay Area