I agree with your characterization of the plaintiffs.

However, the Developer's decision to close the LLC, as I have explained previously, will not end the lawsuit. It is a shame that the Developer's newspaper, The Daily Sun, has chosen not to fully disclose the Developer's rationale for the closing-- just as it was totally silent for years on the lawsuit and now has not reported on plaintiffs' recent appeal. Why do Villagers have to rely on this forum for news?

If the developer had put the word out, The Villages' sales people would be aware of it and wouldn't be able to tout the LLLC as an added benefit.

NEVER EVER heard anything from any sales people on Lifelong Learning College. BE FAIR.

And to be further fair...It wasn't what I thought it would be...more of a true place of real learning. It had a lot of foolish courses on things like Zodiac Signs and herbs and stuff. Even though I personally learned a lot in the art courses taught by Villagers.

We just bought a home in Osceola Hills last month, so I am new to TV. But I have been reading TOTV posts for new months now, especially recently about LLC. I was at a regional rec center and overheard village workers talking about the plaintiffs, comparing them to Muslims. I hope this isn't a sign of the bigotry I will confront when we finally move down. Personally, one of my negatives of TV is that it is very homogeneous, unlike the real world. Here's to meeting all the wonderful, unbiased people that live in this beautiful community.

The Villages Lifelong Learning College

It is the marketing of the Villages by the Developer. And some of these courses were what the community wanted based on what kind of expertise is in the Villages.

Well...different strokes for different folks. Rocket science? No. Some topics may seem foolish but classes were canceled if there was insufficient enrollment. Most did run so there was interest more often than not. (I know you didn't mean to dis it :ohdear:.)

We took a lot of classes there because the free classes at the Rec centers are often too crowded. One example is ballroom dance. When we signed up thru LLC, we knew we would have personal attention from instructors due to class caps and space to move on the dance floor. This is but one example. There are many.

Not a zodiac fan, but what's wrong with herbs ?? :coolsmiley:

LLC was part of the marketing when we were buying, but I can't honestly say it played a role in our decision. More like some icing on the wonderful cake.

Everywhere I go, I hear talk about the Lifelong Learning College closing. It's worrisome. :popcorn:
I wonder if the Developer's lawyers will stand strong against the Plaintiffs' New York lawyers.

It would be hard to go ANYWHERE in the villages and not meet wonderful and friendly people!

There are probably some very nice Muslims here, give them a chance, maybe they are not as bad as the people you herd the workers talking about...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

There are many nice Muslims around. Not so many in the Villages but a lot in Orlando, Tampa, St Pete, Miami, etc.

When I made my comment regarding hearing village workers comparing the plaintiffs in the LLC case to Muslims, I certainly didn't mean to disparage any religion. I just thought that it was "little" of the workers to compare any group with another. They were saying "they're as bad as Muslims". There are things that I wish people didn't believe or at least didn't say out loud as to not make me judge them too quickly. I come the Detroit area and we have the largest Muslim community in the United States. Looking forward to meeting all types of people here.

We have heard there is an open meeting re LLC closing and how this might be resolved on the 20th @7pm. Does anyone have details that might validate this? Thanks..

I think this is the POA meeting, and I am not sure if this is an 'open' meeting, you may need to be a member. The website is Property Owners, Association of Florida.
Hope this helps.

When we took the Trolley tour....I do believe that they pushed the LLC as a perk of TV.

It was also pointed out to us while we waited to talk with a home sales agent in the sales office and we were given a copy of the Rec booklet of classes that were available to browse.

As far as our sales agent when she took us out to look at houses...the LLC was also pushed....the build out was as well. Get it while you can....there won't be any more homes to buy....sure....

I brushed up on my twirling...painting....and cooking...so I think some of us enjoyed there class's. mainly so you had a seat and didn't have to wait in line to get into a free class.

:pray:

It will hurt the Villages without these classes. It was a real draw

So you think they will tell new people it's no longer available here?

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, and whether or not it is practical. At this point I see 3 options, none of which are really all that appealing:

1) Spend the $$$ to fight this all the way up to SCOTUS, and let them make a ruling that defines "reasonable" accommodations

2) Inundate all senators and representatives with letters appealing for a change in the ADA so it is less vague

3) Accept the closure of the LLC, but knowing that Rec centers, clubs, nightly entertainment, The Sharon and Savannah Center may be next. Maybe we need CERTIFIED ASL interpreters to follow every foursome on 50 golf courses so if someone yells "fore" it can be signed to a deaf golfer.

Once again, it looks like a few people with a grievance(legitimate or not) are ruining it for everyone.

Was it??? Do we know that for sure???

I don't know how frequently the LLC was pushed by the sales force, our realtor never even mentioned it, so it must vary. But TV without the LLC is still TV, with everything else it has to offer. To those who are now "looking elsewhere", please let me know when you find another retirement community with all TV has to offer AND has a LLC. You won't find it, and if you did, what makes you think they would be immune to the same legal nonsense that now plagues us? The grass is always greener.......

You can join at the door.

There is also the option of opening something different from the LLC which takes into account the use of voluntary non-government involved Resident Lifestyle Groups to run these classes. Depends a lot on the final result of this case though and how they ruled finally on whether on not these voluntary associations of people need their meeting to meet the requirements of the ADA.

The Lifelong Learning College was part of the Villages developers vision and I am sure they had hands on it in some manner. And the Villages has a lot of governmental aspects in their rule. Something new might work but it would not be as well run as the LLC.

I agree with you.

But remember that the lifestyle groups are not out of the lawsuit yet. The plaintiffs appealed the dismissal of their claim with respect to the groups. I don't know the status of that appeal.

It was "icing on the cake", and a real pleasure to attend classes at LLC.
But I don't think it will hurt sales in The Villages.
There is so much in TV that is unique, including the three Town Squares and the many golf courses.

I have no idea when the court will publish their decision, but here is the link to where they publish the opinions:

Opinions | Eleventh Circuit | United States Court of Appeals

Sums up my feelings also.

It was smart to fold the college. You can't fight the federal government and win.

All of the people teaching can continue to teach without the framework of signing up at the high school. Some alternative idea will emerge.

If we want to learn and teachers want to teach us, there will be a way.

We have a lot of churches and a synagogue with meeting rooms that can be used. We could meet in people's homes.

The last class I attended, the teacher was already making plans for that.

That's true. And my 224 613 Project has been here with me since 2005. Moved it from Palm Harbor, FL around June of that year. And Gary Corsair of The Villages Daily Sun did a short article on how my work was going with the local libraries (Lake, Marion, and Sumter Counties). This was on the Memorial Day weekend of 2007. He wanted to see my files but I said no as I had just met him. Ran into his wife for years with their dog Boo Radley at Doggie Doo Run Run.

There are still a lot of good things in the Villages. And something like the LLC could be set up again in the future IF and WHEN the ADA's rules are applied with more common sense and less anal retentive attention to the letter of the law. Lawyers love the little details; but they often hurt people as well.

We do not know if the lawyers have won anything in the way of damages. The case is not at that stage yet.

I thought if a Canadian or Brit is out of their country for more than 6 months, they lose their government health care.

Rules for Canadian provinces differ. Six months for some provinces, Ontario is seven months.
I think British Columbia is also seven months. Newfoundland is eight months.
We currently buy Travel Insurance when we travel and would be happy to buy it for longer.

Back to the topic of this thread ..... the sad closing of the LL College.

Anyone have any updates on the progress of this case?

Unpublished Opinions Log | Eleventh Circuit | United States Court of Appeals

The Court of Appeals website, as of a couple of minutes ago, does not yet contain a decision on the plaintiffs' appeal of the summary judgment dismissal of their complaint with respect to the clubs.

Thanks for looking Advogado. :clap2:

Thanks for the update.

(The above is a partial quote from Advogado. I left out the first part because it was in answer to a question unrelated to the suit.)



I sure do like your quote from Abe Lincoln..........

Advogado, as an attorney, can you tell me if this case has now reached the point where working together to solve the problem is no longer possible? I mean from a legal standpoint. Have all those doors been slammed?

I do not think qualified interpreters are easy to find. (I know one interpreter who works for the court system in a large city and makes a tidy part-time sum.)

I cannot imagine that TV and the surrounding area could be flush with interpreters. But if anyone would know how to find interpreters, it seems like it would be the plaintiffs.

I wonder if the plaintiffs were ever asked to provide information as to how to proceed. A list of contacts? Specifics? Where to start? What classes? Availability? Willingness to compromise with a small, step-by-step approach, working together, class-by-class, as needed by individuals?

Can plaintiffs be asked to provide specifics for a satisfactory solution? I guess what I am asking is could the ball have been hit back to the plaintiffs to ask exactly and specifically -- Who? When? Where? -- Or was it? Do we know? Did the plaintiffs offer a plan or did they just say no to things that were offered to them?

Are the plaintiffs' demands somewhat nebulous or could they be met in a reasonable manner with informed, exact direction from the plaintiffs themselves? Can they actually be awarded damages if what is asked for is not possible on a large scale?

I have no idea. I am not a lawyer. I am just wasting time this morning overthinking the wheels within wheels in this case. Anyway, Advogado, thanks for the Abe quote. It seems as though this could have been worked through. But is it now too late?

Feel on of the great bragging rights about living here in The Villages has been taken away from us. I feel there could have been some kind of fore warning to this action. Feel very bad for all the instructors who work and teach who had there jobs so unceremoniously taken away from them. I think it is owed to us to be kept informed of what plans are being made to replace or fix this awful situation. Seems no one can really get answers or knows the complete story!!! Very Sad!!

Thank you for your compliment.

The answer to all your questions is: I really don't know, but, since you asked, the following is my take on the situation.

The Developer suppressed all news of the lawsuit for years, and then suddenly sprang the news of the lawsuit by announcing the closing of the LLLC in his newspaper-- in two articles full of bull and devoid of details. The reporting by The Daily Sun on the issue has been, to put in mildly, shameful. The Daily Sun should be the one doing the digging-- not us.

On the other hand, the plaintiffs started the lawsuit before making any effort to reach out to the community for a solution. They may, as claimed by the Developer in the Daily Sun, be totally unreasonable. We just don't know. Only the plaintiffs and the Developer have the full story, and they aren't being forthcoming with the community.

But let's keep one thing in mind: School systems throughout the country run adult education programs like the LLLC despite the ADA and the possibility of frivolous lawsuits. So the question is: Why cannot The Villages Charter School do the same? We don't know the answer.

If you have a masochistic streak and really want to dig deeper, you can sign up for something called PACER and look at all the court documents, which are voluminous. Our Federal Government at work-- making it extremely difficult for the public to access Federal court records.

However, after signing up for PACER and paying to see the documents, you still won't understand the full story since you won't have access to the communications between the parties. At this point, I have no stomach to further dig into this myself, since none of us can do much about the LLLC closing-- which is in the hands of the Developer and the plaintiffs.

More importantly in my view: Watch for the outcome of Plaintiffs' appeal of the summary judgment dismissal of their compliant attacking The Villages clubs. If that dismissal is overturned, we have a much more serious problem here than just the LLLC closing. As of this morning, the Court of Appeals website doesn't show that any decision has been rendered.

As to the LLLC closing: Apparently efforts are being made to construct a substitute. I'm not holding my breath on that one, since the plaintiffs are likely to raise the same ADA/Rehabilitation Act issues regarding the substitute.

As to your question about the likelihood of a settlement: The plaintiffs' attorneys have sunk a tremendous number of billable hours into this matter-- looking to get paid by the defendants. If the summary judgment dismissal re the clubs is upheld on appeal, maybe the plaintiffs' attorneys will decide that they want to cut their losses, but I doubt it. They will probably continue on the LLLC issue-- unless the Developer is willing to pony up a significant amount of money for their fees. Remember that closing the "Lifelong Learning College" (just a name used by The Villages Charter School for its adult education program) does not end the lawsuit.

The above is just my opinion, and I, as indicated, am not playing with a full deck of cards. I guess you get what you pay for in terms of legal advice.

Nicely put advogato. Few people are aware just how much paper work these large cases generate and how difficult it is to look at it in a useful setting. I used to work at the University of Minnesota Law Library and have seen some of the filings in cases like this one.

Still believe this is two sides ****ing all over the community because some of them are very big dogs or see themselves that way and were unwilling to back down from this fight. The community gets hurt and the big dogs keep their pride.

Well, I was curious and signed up for Pacer Monitor's free trial membership plus $.15 per page document fee. I soon realized it wasn't worthwhile, as Advogado says. After spending a few dollars the only thing of substance I saw was the "Final Joint Pretrial Statement" issued at the end of September. This has to do with the one issue the Court decided was worthy of being tried, the Plaintiffs' alleged discrimination by the LLC under the Rehabilitation Act. As of a few weeks ago, it was set for trial in Ocala in front of a visiting judge in January or February, 2017.

This is separate from Plaintiffs' Appeal (Case No. 16-11122) concerning the Villages' Clubs, which was to be heard in appellate court in Atlanta two weeks ago.

I hate to think about what this has cost and who will pay.