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-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Police Dept. sign on 466 (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/police-dept-sign-466-a-190313/)

spring_chicken 04-22-2016 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodtimesintv (Post 1215815)
On a county road like 466 here, when both lanes are full of "continuous traffic" half the vehicles MUST drive in the left lane because two lanes of space are occupied--full!

When there is "continuous traffic" i.e. bumper to bumper in the right lane, when you pass them there is no space to merge yourself back into the right lane after passing!

A four-lane road like 466 with lots of left turns, stop lights, and cars turning right ONTO 466 from a dead stop and having to accelerate (such as from the gas stations at Southern Trace) is not the same as the interstate where there's a minimum speed, most are going the speed limit continuously, and nobody is slowing to almost a halt to turn onto another street.



[/COLOR]

466 is 6 lanes, not 4, when exiting the gas stations at Southern Trace.

Record10ti 04-22-2016 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by looneycat (Post 1215865)
there are a good number of exceptions. like a continuous traffic flow allows for use of the left lane. the slow driving law does not allow tailgating someone doing the limit...if you want to do 70 in a 60 you are breaking the law in any lane.

Unless the state has intelligent law makers and has a "go with the flow" clause. If the majority of traffic is doing 70 and you are doing 55 in a lane (but for the far right)...then YOU as the slow idiot are the one impeding traffic. That would be a real tough one for the folks in the Villages driving the moronic electric cars (typically a Toyota Pious).

Bay Kid 04-22-2016 07:48 AM

Makes sense.

Walter123 04-22-2016 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spring_chicken (Post 1215146)
I just saw one of those portable signs belonging to the police dept that flashes the following message:
"Stay in right lane unless passing. It's the law"

I hope this means they are going to start ticketing some of these left lane laggards. News6 also has a story about them.Slow left lane driving can result in citation

I saw that sign, I had to slow down to read it. But seriously folks, a "law" like that is going nowhere around here, especially in the nutty season. Unless you're going 20 mph in the left lane no cop in their right mind is gonna give you a ticket and if they wanted to pull you over there would be no room in the right lane. Just think of all the excuses you could use. Oh, and am I the only one concerned about the two school zones on 466?
I say the heck with the sign and, full speed ahead at 40 mph in the left lane because that's as fast as your probably gonna get go on 466 anyway. I'll take my chances and drive the way the situation demands. Like I said before, leave this law for limited access highways. This law won't stop road rage, it will make it worse because the speeders will think they have the law on their side and that's gonna make them even more aggressive. :police: :police:

graciegirl 04-22-2016 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodtimesintv (Post 1215815)
On a county road like 466 here, when both lanes are full of "continuous traffic" half the vehicles MUST drive in the left lane because two lanes of space are occupied--full!

When there is "continuous traffic" i.e. bumper to bumper in the right lane, when you pass them there is no space to merge yourself back into the right lane after passing!

A four-lane road like 466 with lots of left turns, stop lights, and cars turning right ONTO 466 from a dead stop and having to accelerate (such as from the gas stations at Southern Trace) is not the same as the interstate where there's a minimum speed, most are going the speed limit continuously, and nobody is slowing to almost a halt to turn onto another street.

Driving involves the driver making judgement calls all day long. This is a Michigan article, but the concept is the same, and this section below is how many of us were taught in other states:

"Church explained it like this: If there are two lanes in the same direction then the motorist is required to drive in the right lane.

But, he said, there are several exceptions: Motorists may drive in the left lane if passing, if there is a continuous flow of traffic, if turning left, or if on the freeway (i.e., the "expressway") and there are three or more lanes in one direction.

“This is primarily enforced on the expressway,” Church said. “In fact, I have never heard of an officer enforcing it anywhere else.”

“I do know of a few instances where officers did issue citations, but the magistrates seem to frown upon those tickets,” he said.

Also, Church added, the "substantially continuous lanes of traffic..." referred to in the law is undefined. It essentially means "bumper to bumper" traffic, but officers generally use a lot of discretion, he said."

Traffic talk: Is it legal to travel in the left lane? Is it illegal to pass on the right? Can you be cited? | MLive.com




You are right. In the high season here, 466 is very clogged in both lanes and all of this discussion is not relevant at all. I still say...remain calm, do not personalize driving behavior. Stay well away from bad drivers if you can. AND DON'T allow others driving behavior to get to you.

Walter123 04-22-2016 08:01 AM

....

kstew43 04-22-2016 08:07 AM

Slow down, turn up the music..look around at the pretty flowers their planting...

Whats the hurry....

I never want to die in a car accident....laying on the side of the road under a yellow tarp....everybody slowing down to catch a glimpse of the dead person...:angel:

Walter123 04-22-2016 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kstew43 (Post 1215898)
Slow down, turn up the music..look around at the pretty flowers their planting...

Whats the hurry....

I never want to die in a car accident....laying on the side of the road under a yellow tarp....everybody slowing down to catch a glimpse of the dead person...:angel:

You got that right! Reminds me of the song "Feeling Groovy". Slow down you move too fast, got to make the morning last.

MnGirl 04-22-2016 11:59 AM

I guess that's why they put up the sign (some still don't get it). If you are driving less that the speed limit and you are in the left lane, impeding traffic driving along side of someone else, you should get a ticket. That's what it's about, that's all.

goodtimesintv 04-22-2016 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MnGirl (Post 1215977)
I guess that's why they put up the sign (some still don't get it). If you are driving less that the speed limit and you are in the left lane, impeding traffic driving along side of someone else, you should get a ticket. That's what it's about, that's all.

Yeah, right. In your judgement, we should be ticketed for having no opening on our right, which makes us unable to merge back into the right lane ahead of the bumper-to-bumper string of cars--going the speed limit--that we just passed.

And we should be ticketed for being in the left lane and having to slow down for the yellow or red light up ahead (which happens every 1/4 mile or less on hwy 466 here).

PPPfffffffffftttttttttttt!!

looneycat 04-22-2016 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Record10ti (Post 1215886)
Unless the state has intelligent law makers and has a "go with the flow" clause. If the majority of traffic is doing 70 and you are doing 55 in a lane (but for the far right)...then YOU as the slow idiot are the one impeding traffic. That would be a real tough one for the folks in the Villages driving the moronic electric cars (typically a Toyota Pious).

i believe that's impeding the flow, and how can one doing the legal speed LIMIT, notice the word limit, be impeding the flow of traffic...with the exception of emergency vehicles, not being an idiot, i didn't think you meant the obvious doing 55 in a 70, did you?? :police:

rubicon 04-25-2016 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spring_chicken (Post 1215146)
I just saw one of those portable signs belonging to the police dept that flashes the following message:
"Stay in right lane unless passing. It's the law"

I hope this means they are going to start ticketing some of these left lane laggards. News6 also has a story about them.Slow left lane driving can result in citation

spring chicken: I was heading east on 466 about 8:20 AM this morning. In the left lane at 45mph. Traffic light. Suddenly passing me on the right and quickly widening our gap was this large white pick up truck . On the back of that pick up truck it said "SHERIFF" and then Vehicle repossessed from drug dealer:D

do as say not as I do. Hmmmm

Topspinmo 04-25-2016 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1217470)
spring chicken: I was heading east on 466 about 8:20 AM this morning. In the left lane at 45mph. Traffic light. Suddenly passing me on the right and quickly widening our gap was this large white pick up truck . On the back of that pick up truck it said "SHERIFF" and then Vehicle repossessed from drug dealer:D

do as say not as I do. Hmmmm

The law is only for us citzens. The LEOS are exempt. Don't say they're have to.?

Who's going to give them ticket?

In prefect world the left lane for faster moving vehicles and no passing on the right. Now we are out of Laa Laa land, it's never going to happen.

Polar Bear 04-25-2016 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1217470)
spring chicken: I was heading east on 466 about 8:20 AM this morning. In the left lane at 45mph. Traffic light. Suddenly passing me on the right and quickly widening our gap was this large white pick up truck . On the back of that pick up truck it said "SHERIFF" and then Vehicle repossessed from drug dealer:D

do as say not as I do. Hmmmm

Not sure as I see the problem. :confused:

dbussone 04-25-2016 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by looneycat (Post 1216127)
i believe that's impeding the flow, and how can one doing the legal speed LIMIT, notice the word limit, be impeding the flow of traffic...with the exception of emergency vehicles, not being an idiot, i didn't think you meant the obvious doing 55 in a 70, did you?? :police:



LC - as I understand the law, the speed limit is not the issue. It's more an issue of taking up residence in the left lane, no matter what your speed.

Polar Bear 04-25-2016 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbussone (Post 1217473)
LC - as I understand the law, the speed limit is not the issue. It's more an issue of taking up residence in the left lane, no matter what your speed.

Exactly right. According to the law you cannot block faster traffic in the left lane even if they...or even you...are exceeding the speed limit.

ColdNoMore 04-25-2016 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1217479)
Exactly right. According to the law you cannot block faster traffic in the left lane even if they...or even you...are exceeding the speed limit.

Excellent point and an interesting thread.

Although not too many will ever admit to it, it's been my experience that a lot of folks enjoy the feeling of power and control when they can keep people from passing them.

The way I see it, is that if there is room for me in the right lane that is where I stay (and belong), unless I am coming up soon on a left hand turn (which I can almost always safely move over) or I decide to pass someone.

Unlike some folks, I don't feel it is my job to regulate those who choose to drive in the left lane faster than the speed limit.

Just my $.02 worth.

BobnBev 04-26-2016 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1217470)
spring chicken: I was heading east on 466 about 8:20 AM this morning. In the left lane at 45mph. Traffic light. Suddenly passing me on the right and quickly widening our gap was this large white pick up truck . On the back of that pick up truck it said "SHERIFF" and then Vehicle repossessed from drug dealer:D

do as say not as I do. Hmmmm

Why were you in the LEFT lane going 45. Why not the RIGHT lane where you belong. As far as him speeding, there are many reasons, none of which you would be aware of. Just sayin.

Walter123 04-26-2016 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobnBev (Post 1217574)
Why were you in the LEFT lane going 45. Why not the RIGHT lane where you belong. As far as him speeding, there are many reasons, none of which you would be aware of. Just sayin.

Simple, he was gonna make a left soon. My question is why didn't the cop passing on the right give rubicon a ticket?

Topspinmo 04-26-2016 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter123 (Post 1217607)
Simple, he was gonna make a left soon. My question is why didn't the cop passing on the right give rubicon a ticket?


Because he was not breaking the law maybe. It's only a suggestion.
I could see it now I am giving you ticket for going the speed limit in th left lane even though you was going to make left turn, I didn't have my lights no when speeding in the right lane, and there was no traffic ahead of you, or go through in roundabout or in th through lane in the city. After all we should all be lined up in the right lane at stop lights and stop sign.

spring_chicken 04-26-2016 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 1217638)
Because he was not breaking the law maybe. It's only a suggestion.
I could see it now I am giving you ticket for going the speed limit in th left lane even though you was going to make left turn, I didn't have my lights no when speeding in the right lane, and there was no traffic ahead of you, or go through in roundabout or in th through lane in the city. After all we should all be lined up in the right lane at stop lights and stop sign.


See original post. It is not a suggestion, it IS the law.

Walter123 04-26-2016 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 1217638)
Because he was not breaking the law maybe. It's only a suggestion.
I could see it now I am giving you ticket for going the speed limit in th left lane even though you was going to make left turn, I didn't have my lights no when speeding in the right lane, and there was no traffic ahead of you, or go through in roundabout or in th through lane in the city. After all we should all be lined up in the right lane at stop lights and stop sign.

I am not an advocate of the new law. BTW, it is a law and not a suggestion. My point being that if the police went to enough trouble to put up a big sign then why aren't they enforcing it? I'll answer my own question....Because it's a stupid law for local roads.

blueash 04-26-2016 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kansasr (Post 1215249)
I saw that sign today...stuck behind a car in the left lane on 466 going about 42 mph pretty much from Chula Vista Ave to More!

You were STUCK behind a car going 42 in a 45 MPH zone for an entire 1.5 miles? I love doing math. That terrible awful so slow driver cost you an entire 7.8 seconds of your life you're never going to get back. Or about the amount of time involved in taking one slow deep breath. Ommm

graciegirl 04-26-2016 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1217686)
You were STUCK behind a car going 42 in a 45 MPH zone for an entire 1.5 miles? I love doing math. That terrible awful so slow driver cost you an entire 7.8 seconds of your life you're never going to get back. Or about the amount of time involved in taking one slow deep breath. Ommm

I have said this before. You are VERY smart. Be sure to be patient with the rest of us.;)

GaryW 04-26-2016 11:04 AM

I sometimes think the law is crazy, until yesterday,,
Made a right turn onto 466 from Rolling acers,, there were few cars in front of me,, 2 of the cars went right into the left lane. the car in the right lane was doing 30 mph, and the first car in the left lane 30. side by side all the way to Morse. Then from the red lite at Morse and 466, they stayed side by side half way to Buena Vista.

I almost chewed my finger nails off. The car in the right line finally got in front of the car in the left lane. I know there were at least 30 cars behind me.

Now sure I know it cost you 10 min of your life. That is not the point,, stay right unless passing. If you need to get into the left lane to turn 10 miles down the road, you might have a issue or 2. Speed Limit is 45 or what ever. Doing 15 under side by side. The one lady could hardly see over her steering wheel. Made me want to get off the road.

Just Sayin.

Mikeod 04-26-2016 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1217686)
You were STUCK behind a car going 42 in a 45 MPH zone for an entire 1.5 miles? I love doing math. That terrible awful so slow driver cost you an entire 7.8 seconds of your life you're never going to get back. Or about the amount of time involved in taking one slow deep breath. Ommm

There was an article in the online paper by the police chief of Lady Lake about road rage. He mentioned the #1 cause was someone impeding traffic in the left lane. Speed was immaterial. So the problem is not that someone may make you several seconds late for your destination, it is a known contributor to road rage which is a more serious problem. Remember that roads like 466 are not our roads, but are used by people young and old daily. I'm certain anyone who drives to and about large cities will note the increase in aggressive driving with a younger mix of drivers. We have some of that mix along these roads. It would serve us well to let these people pass no matter what their or our speed. I have never had a problem getting into the left lane to make a left turn because of faster drivers. I have, however, had problems doing that when someone has "parked" in the left lane and there was a long line of cars behind. It is a daily occurrence on 466 approaching Morse or Rolling Acres to get into the left lane behind someone going slow and I assume they are turning left. Only to see them proceed straight through the intersection continuing to block that lane.

And, it is the law.

Topspinmo 04-26-2016 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spring_chicken (Post 1217677)
See original post. It is not a suggestion, it IS the law.

So is stopping BEHIND stop signs, at stop signs, behind white lines painted as stop signs. Now shall we get in to who has the right away at 4 way stops IAW the law?

For all you left lane speeder thinking ever else is going to drive in the right lane so you can spend on by. Good luck. Posting that sign on city street is plain stupid. Yes even when entering small town of lady lake that everybody passes through. Could of at least had it exiting the city.

They need over by Walmart on 441 I can just see everybody in the right lane at the multiple stops signs down the bumper to bumper traffic in all three lanes.

graciegirl 04-26-2016 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeod (Post 1217753)
There was an article in the online paper by the police chief of Lady Lake about road rage. He mentioned the #1 cause was someone impeding traffic in the left lane. Speed was immaterial. So the problem is not that someone may make you several seconds late for your destination, it is a known contributor to road rage which is a more serious problem. Remember that roads like 466 are not our roads, but are used by people young and old daily. I'm certain anyone who drives to and about large cities will note the increase in aggressive driving with a younger mix of drivers. We have some of that mix along these roads. It would serve us well to let these people pass no matter what their or our speed. I have never had a problem getting into the left lane to make a left turn because of faster drivers. I have, however, had problems doing that when someone has "parked" in the left lane and there was a long line of cars behind. It is a daily occurrence on 466 approaching Morse or Rolling Acres to get into the left lane behind someone going slow and I assume they are turning left. Only to see them proceed straight through the intersection continuing to block that lane.

And, it is the law.


Well said.

As usual.

Had you thought about running for president?

kstew43 04-26-2016 01:19 PM

Just a thought..

I drive a 2015 nissan sentra.

When I pass the police speed indicators that we have in our south florida neighborhoods..... my car registers 2 to 3 miles under the speed our speedometer is indicating? Its also evident on my GPS speed register.

We called Nissan and were told that they do that deliberatly???? This is supposed to assist drivers to not get speeding tickets....

So before you get mad at someone going 42 in a 45. Check to see if its a nissan. we think were going the correct speed.

goodtimesintv 04-26-2016 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryW (Post 1217744)
I sometimes think the law is crazy, until yesterday,,
Made a right turn onto 466 from Rolling acers,, there were few cars in front of me,, 2 of the cars went right into the left lane. the car in the right lane was doing 30 mph, and the first car in the left lane 30. side by side all the way to Morse. Then from the red lite at Morse and 466, they stayed side by side half way to Buena Vista.


I almost chewed my finger nails off. The car in the right line finally got in front of the car in the left lane. I know there were at least 30 cars behind me.

Now sure I know it cost you 10 min of your life. That is not the point,, stay right unless passing. If you need to get into the left lane to turn 10 miles down the road, you might have a issue or 2. Speed Limit is 45 or what ever. Doing 15 under side by side. The one lady could hardly see over her steering wheel. Made me want to get off the road.

Just Sayin.

We all (I hope) see your point, but under typical circumstances, the drivers in both lanes are not going (poozeydookin' along) that slowly. The clueless driver on the left should have been stopped for not going at a reasonable speed under the conditions.

As I remember it, the notion of "left lane is passing lane" came to be on interstate highways where the speed limit was 65 and there are minimum speed limits to stay above.

I remember a time about 10 years ago, when some states made the left lane of the interstate highways the designated, required lane that semi-trucks had to use. (I think because entrance ramp cars had such a terrible time merging into the right lane with strings of semi trucks staying in the right lane because "left lane was 'passing' lane" was causing huge problems for those trying to merge into the right lane.)

I can think of many times where I've had to merge from an interstate or expressway entrance ramp into the right lane traffic going 55 mph or 65 mph, and the entrance lane is quickly ending. That is when we want the cars/trucks to get over into the left lane so we can merge in. Calling the left lane "passing only" simply is not feasible.

The local county roads like 466 are not interstate or expressway, non-stopping or non-slowing roads. Here, there are all kinds of reasons like high number of cars, frequent left turns to slow down for, frequent store/gas station driveways on the right from which people need to sometime come out onto the right lane after waiting and waiting for the string of cars to clear.

The "left lane is passing lane only" is not a good solution for local, county roads like these here. The left lane has to have other uses besides passing, and sometimes there is no opening on the right to get back into after passing, or there's a stoplight coming up frequently.

Walter123 04-26-2016 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 1217780)
So is stopping BEHIND stop signs, at stop signs, behind white lines painted as stop signs. Now shall we get in to who has the right away at 4 way stops IAW the law?

For all you left lane speeder thinking ever else is going to drive in the right lane so you can spend on by. Good luck. Posting that sign on city street is plain stupid. Yes even when entering small town of lady lake that everybody passes through. Could of at least had it exiting the city.

They need over by Walmart on 441 I can just see everybody in the right lane at the multiple stops signs down the bumper to bumper traffic in all three lanes.

Well said.

As usual.

Had you thought about running for president?

Polar Bear 04-26-2016 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 1217780)
...For all you left lane speeder thinking ever else is going to drive in the right lane so you can spend on by. Good luck...

You have absolutely no idea what the law says or what it is intended to accomplish.

Miles42 04-26-2016 03:30 PM

By the way if they ticket you for a clear notified infraction. The sign is really obvious. Take your whinning to court and see if it helps LOL

rubicon 04-26-2016 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1217472)
Not sure as I see the problem. :confused:

1) the sheriff passed me like I was standing still.

2) according to the message they are displaying there is no passing on the right. the sheriff passed me on the right.

3) I like what he did but if I did i it would cost me a fine and points on my license. NO JUSTICE NO PEACE:)

rubicon 04-26-2016 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobnBev (Post 1217574)
Why were you in the LEFT lane going 45. Why not the RIGHT lane where you belong. As far as him speeding, there are many reasons, none of which you would be aware of. Just sayin.

BobnBev: your avatar speaks to why I am careful what i say on TOTV

Polar Bear 04-26-2016 04:07 PM

Police Dept. sign on 466
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1217866)
1) the sheriff passed me like I was standing still.

2) according to the message they are displaying there is no passing on the right. the sheriff passed me on the right.

3) I like what he did but if I did i it would cost me a fine and points on my license. NO JUSTICE NO PEACE:)

He's the Sheriff.

Not sure as I see the problem. :confused:

outlaw 04-26-2016 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter123 (Post 1217835)
Well said.

As usual.

Had you thought about running for president?

Well said?! You're kidding, right? Please translate for those of us who only understand English.:a20:

rubicon 04-26-2016 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbussone (Post 1217473)
LC - as I understand the law, the speed limit is not the issue. It's more an issue of taking up residence in the left lane, no matter what your speed.

dbussone: the speed limit on 466 from 441 to 301 except for school zones, etc is 45mph and beyond 301 can be upward of 55mph.

In my view 45 mph is too slow. I say this because some drivers insist on doing 35mph or under and often they stay in the left lane and stay abreast with those drivers in the right hand lane. hence many drivers are completley blocked off. This scenario often plays out on 466 frustrating many driver. if the speed limit changed to 35mph then they be going 25-30mph...its a badge of honor

LOE recent posting is going to cause more confusion because you are never going to get 100% of people to be compliant to rules that make little or no sense. People will make the necessary move when it opens. if a guy is going below 45mph in the left lane a driver behind him is likely to go to the right lane to get around this slower driver and then back into the left lane and proceed at 45mph +

If people did follow what the LOE are suggesting 466 would be a bottleneck Monday thru Friday. Morning traffic is heavy for those gong to work as is afternoon when they go home.

rubicon 04-26-2016 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter123 (Post 1217607)
Simple, he was gonna make a left soon. My question is why didn't the cop passing on the right give rubicon a ticket?

Aren't you the guy that believes the solution to the 466 traffic issue is to lower the speed limit on 466 to 35mph. traffic is painfully slow on 466 and your solution is to go slower. Really?

and what would the cop give me a ticket for? I mean I was at the legal speed limit and I couldn't move to the right lane with a cop moving much faster than me on my right. Walter Walter Walter....123 You are certainly feeling your oats. God bless your heart

By the way the difference between a critique and criticism is more than the (q) but that's a lesson for another day.

Personal Best Regards:

dbussone 04-26-2016 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kstew43 (Post 1217798)
Just a thought..

I drive a 2015 nissan sentra.

When I pass the police speed indicators that we have in our south florida neighborhoods..... my car registers 2 to 3 miles under the speed our speedometer is indicating? Its also evident on my GPS speed register.

We called Nissan and were told that they do that deliberatly???? This is supposed to assist drivers to not get speeding tickets....

So before you get mad at someone going 42 in a 45. Check to see if its a nissan. we think were going the correct speed.

Perhaps a class action is in order, kinda like the malfunctioning airbags in many autos?

I'd prefer any instrument that accurately reflects what it is intended to measure.


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