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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/why-taxpayers-not-developer-paying-expansion-village-298614/)

Velvet 10-01-2019 10:01 AM
On that note, any second generation TVers around?

njbchbum 10-01-2019 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685282)
Why would the Commissioners wait until 2020 to increase the impact fee? That should have been done instead of increasing taxes once it became clear that a massive infrastructure expansion was necessary. The impact fee was not increased at that time, and property taxes were, for the reasons outlined in my original post.
LOL You are the poster who claimed that impact fees are to be reviewed every 5 years...thus 2020! The impact fee was not raised when Fenny, et.al. were announced and neither were S.C. taxes! But life is different now and something else should have been done *because* a tax increase was implemented? lololol

If the County maintained that 'rainy day' fund for unanticipated issues it would have that funding to fall back on in order to avoid such a serious tax increase. You claimed it is not raining - I claim that S.C. is suffering from a torrential downpour! Even my little town up north maintains that 'rainy day' fund with a small percentage of its annual tax revenue to be used to cover $$ associated with properties on which owners fail to pay their taxes or for other community issues which would place a burden on the taxpayers!

Why did no one complain when taxes were not increased for so many years? Was everyone enjoying riding the gravy train? So now the train is back in the depot and the piper needs to be paid for maintenance work that needs to be done and in preparation for the next gravy train run!

The S.C millage rate is still the lowest of all 3 Villages Counties - is it not?

Velvet 10-01-2019 10:07 AM
Are you kidding? Taxes were not increased because the bond covered infrastructure. Trying to guilt trip people isn’t going to work. But statistics and equivalent comparisons may be convincing.

Advogado 10-01-2019 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbchbum (Post 1685377)
LOL You are the poster who claimed that impact fees are to be reviewed every 5 years...thus 2020! The impact fee was not raised when Fenny, et.al. were announced and neither were S.C. taxes! But life is different now and something else should have been done *because* a tax increase was implemented? lololol

If the County maintained that 'rainy day' fund for unanticipated issues it would have that funding to fall back on in order to avoid such a serious tax increase. You claimed it is not raining - I claim that S.C. is suffering from a torrential downpour! Even my little town up north maintains that 'rainy day' fund with a small percentage of its annual tax revenue to be used to cover $$ associated with properties on which owners fail to pay their taxes or for other community issues which would place a burden on the taxpayers!

Why did no one complain when taxes were not increased for so many years? Was everyone enjoying riding the gravy train? So now the train is back in the depot and the piper needs to be paid for maintenance work that needs to be done and in preparation for the next gravy train run!

The S.C millage rate is still the lowest of all 3 Villages Counties - is it not?
I am afraid that you misread my post and didn't check the Sumter County website.

I said that the impact fees were to be reviewed “at least every 5 years” [emphasis added]. For your information, here is a quote from the Sumter County web site:
“Section 20-48 of the Sumter County Code of Ordinances requires that the data upon which road impact fees are calculated be reviewed at least once every five years to ensure that a valid and equitable basis for the assessment of such fees is maintained.”

I am glad to be educated if I make a mistake, but please get your facts straight and don't misquote me.

The issue here is simple: The Developer came to his toadies on the Commission with a plan to double the size of The Villages, which will necessitate large expenditures for infrastructure. The toadies on the Commission could pay for this infrastructure expansion either through increasing the Developer's impact fee or by imposing a tax increase on Sumter County residents. The Commissioners chose the latter.

This has nothing to do with a rainy-day fund or the failure of the Commissioners to set one up. Had they set up a rainy-day fund, it would still be the taxpayers, not the Developer, paying for the infrastructure expansion necessitated by The Villages expansion.

Advogado 10-01-2019 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian (Post 1685294)
The title of the thread is misleading. The implication is that ONLY TV tax payers are paying and second that somehow the developers would foot the bill if it were not taxed.

The fact is that residents in TV would pay one way or the other. The money is for things that would be done no matter what given the growth of TV. Also, it can be argued that the development of TV in this county increases the value of properties around TV.

This seems to be the same argument that "I don't have kids, why should I pay for schools", or "I don't own a car why should I pay for roads", and on and on. We all share in the cost of our community, it can be paid up front, or buried in taxes, or hidden in "invisible taxes" (like gasoline taxes).

A better question to me would be "are we getting our moneys worth". The fact is is being paid through taxes or amenity or bond or built into home sales price is not relevant to me.
In fact, Sumter County non-Villagers are getting screwed worse than Villagers by the increase in their taxes versus an increase in the Developer's impact fee. This is because the non-residents have no access to The Villages amenities. The non-residents, if they understand what is being done to them, should be irate

Furthermore, economics 101: No seller can just add his increased costs to the price of his product. The Developer would have to absorb some or all of an increased impact fee because of competition in the market. That is why he stopped his Commissioners from increasing it, and they increased our taxes instead.

Advogado 10-01-2019 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685282)
Why would the Commissioners wait until 2020 to increase the impact fee? That should have been done instead of increasing taxes once it became clear that a massive infrastructure expansion was necessary. The impact fee was not increased at that time, and property were, for the reasons outlined in my original post.
The Commissioners would not have to wait until 2020. The impact fees were to be reviewed AT LEAST every 5 years.

Big O 10-01-2019 12:19 PM
Furthermore, economics 101: No seller can just add his increased costs to the price of his product. The Developer would have to absorb some or all of an increased impact fee because of competition in the market. That is why he stopped his Commissioners from increasing it, and they increased our taxes instead.[/QUOTE]

Economics must be different where you come from. Where I come from you increase your price to cover the increased costs or you go out of business.

Advogado 10-01-2019 12:57 PM
Quote: Economics must be different where you come from. Where I come from you increase your price to cover the increased costs or you go out of business. Unquote


I am not sure where you studied economics, but you must live in a communist country.

In a capitalist economy, you must sell your product at a competitive price or you go out of business. You cannot simply add increased costs to your price (unless the costs are also increased for your competitors). That is why businesses always try to reduce their costs.

In any case, how much the Developer would have to absorb is not the issue here. The issue is tax increase for everybody versus impact-fee increase for the Developer.

dewilson58 10-01-2019 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter (Post 1685328)
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:



Please share your popcorn..............the thread is funny and sad at the same time.

Mikeod 10-01-2019 01:33 PM
So, how is this any different from other municipalities, counties, or states that provide tax and other incentives to get companies to move into them? Certainly the tax shortfall created has to be addressed by a tax increase.

The Villages isn’t the only one building in Sumter. Perhaps the county was concerned raising impact fees across the board may discourage other builders and reduce potential tax revenue.

Perhaps the county saw an opportunity to dramatically increase its tax base through increased building of residential and commercial property and, at the same time, address the need for a comprehensive improvement in surface routes in the county.

And I don’t remember reading that the developer won’t also have to pay the increase on all his property, such as unsold homes, the squares, the commercial areas, etc. maybe I missed that.

To me, the only ones with a legitimate gripe are those living in other areas of the county that believes they are ignored in favor of Villages residents.

TNGary 10-01-2019 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1684911)
I am going to start with a riddle: How can 5 guys screw 125,000 people--- Now I mean screw financially, not physically?

The answer to the riddle: Five guys can do this by getting elected to the Sumter County Board of Commissioners, with the support of the Developer and then financially screwing everybody in Sumter County-- except the Developer and the Developer's cronies. More specifically, these 5 guys are screwing Sumter County taxpayers by giving the Developer a sweetheart deal on IMPACT FEES, thereby offloading the costs of The Villages expansion on to Sumter County taxpayers and saving the Developer an incredible amount of money. That is what we saw happening on the evening of September 25 when the Developer toadies serving as County Commissioners screwed the Sumter County taxpayers with a 25% tax increase in order to benefit the Commissioners' patron, the Developer.

Remember the Developer put the County Commissioners in office via his “One Sumter” 2004 legislation; his campaign contributions; his propaganda organ, The Villages Daily Sun; and his promotion of directors and presidents from his front organization, the so-called Villages Homeowners Advocates (the VHA), to political office.

Until recently, I didn't know what an impact fee was. Now I do--no thanks to the September 24th front-page article in The Developer' Daily Sun, which purported to explain property taxes, but never mentions impact fees. According to Sumter County's own website: “An impact fee is a one time charge applied to new construction. The purpose of the fee is to fund capital projects for roads (such as construction, land acquisition, [sic]). Impact fees can be charges for parks, schools, jails, ambulances and other infrastructure needs that may occur due to new development.” An impact fee is paid by the builder of a new house when he gets his building permit.

If you are on a County Commission, and you want to do a favor for the guy who put you in office and that guy is a big developer, you set a REAL LOW impact fee. To put what's going on here in perspective, let's look at Collier County. In Collier County, where the Developer doesn't have the County Commissioners in his pocket, the builder of a house in a retirement community pays an impact fee of about $20,000 per house.

In Sumter County, the Developer pays an impact fee of $901 per house. I repeat $901 or about $19,000 per house less than he would pay if he built in Collier County. Stated differently the Developer is paying an impact fee of less than 5% of what he would pay in Collier County.

This sweetheart deal in Sumter County has been in place for years. Who has been making up for the lost county revenue, i.e., who has been making a gift to the Developer? We have, through higher county taxes.

Now the chickens have now REALLY come home to roost. The Villages is massively expanding, which is necessitating a corresponding massive expansion in roads and other infrastructure. 60,000 new houses times $19,000 per house (i.e., the difference between the Sumter County and Collier County impact-fee rates) means that the Developer will be paying impact fees of One Billion, One Hundred Forty Million Dollars less than he would pay in Collier County. BUT rather than increasing the Developer's low impact fees to cover the cost of the infrastructure expansion, the County Commissioners are increasing OUR taxes by 25%. (Incidentally, the One Billion, One Hundred Forty Million Dollar figure doesn't include the amount of the gift that the Developer has already received with respect to houses already built.) The Developer is certainly getting a good return on his campaign contributions-- at our expense.

The Daily Sun cites $348 as a typical tax increase. So remember, when you pay your taxes, you are essentially writing a check to the Developer for $348 (or whatever your actual tax increase is.)

Please mark your 2020 calendars on August 18 (the date of the Republican primary) and on November 3 (the date of the general election) as follows: VOTE OUT BUTLER, BURGESS, AND PRINTZ.

LET'S CLEAN UP SUMTER COUNTY GOVERNMENT
Good write-up and thanks for pulling this together. Regarding voting out the three names you mentioned, Please follow-up with the names of three replacement candidates that are on the same page as the Villages' residents.

PrudentLifer 10-01-2019 01:59 PM
Death and taxes, taxes and death.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Advogado 10-01-2019 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeod (Post 1685419)
So, how is this any different from other municipalities, counties, or states that provide tax and other incentives to get companies to move into them? Certainly the tax shortfall created has to be addressed by a tax increase.

The Villages isn’t the only one building in Sumter. Perhaps the county was concerned raising impact fees across the board may discourage other builders and reduce potential tax revenue.

Perhaps the county saw an opportunity to dramatically increase its tax base through increased building of residential and commercial property and, at the same time, address the need for a comprehensive improvement in surface routes in the county.

And I don’t remember reading that the developer won’t also have to pay the increase on all his property, such as unsold homes, the squares, the commercial areas, etc. maybe I missed that.

To me, the only ones with a legitimate gripe are those living in other areas of the county that believes they are ignored in favor of Villages residents.
Tax incentives are given to entice investment. No incentives were needed to get the Developer to invest here. In fact, the great majority of Sumter County residents would have been happy to see The Villages not expand further, as was originally promised.

What is going on here is nothing more than a gift to the Developer from his toadies on the County Commission, and it is indefensible.

New Englander 10-01-2019 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=Advogado;1685429]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNGary (Post 1685420)
Good write-up and thanks for pulling this together. Regarding voting out the three names you mentioned, [B]Please follow-up with the names of three replacement candidates that are on the same page as the l
Thanks.

Right now challengers are just starting to emerge. Hopefully, there will be some good ones. I am hoping that the POA will vet the challengers and make recommendations.

BTW, I am surprised at the number of posters who defend the tax increase and the continuation of the low impact fee for the Developer.

I am a Republican, and this area is highly Republican. We are supposed to be against corporate welfare-- which is exactly what is being doled out here to the Developer. I guess some people just don't recognize it for what it is (or they are affiliated with the Developer-- a problem with the anonymous posts on this site).
I'm not.

Velvet 10-01-2019 04:04 PM
Because I would guess people working for sales etc have a vested interest and the TIME sitting in front of a computer during work hours, as compared to many Villagers enjoying recreation outside. I’m in my studio painting away happily with my iPad open. You get a very skewed sample at TOTV.

Bogie Shooter 10-01-2019 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet (Post 1685468)
Because I would guess people working for sales etc have a vested interest and the TIME sitting in front of a computer during work hours, as compared to many Villagers enjoying recreation outside. I’m in my studio painting away happily with my iPad open. You get a very skewed sample at TOTV.
:what:

graciegirl 10-01-2019 06:16 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet (Post 1685468)
Because I would guess people working for sales etc have a vested interest and the TIME sitting in front of a computer during work hours, as compared to many Villagers enjoying recreation outside. I’m in my studio painting away happily with my iPad open. You get a very skewed sample at TOTV.
I don't know if I agree or not, but I too painted a bit today...…….

Velvet 10-01-2019 06:45 PM
Love it! Mother and child are my favorite themes. And sea sides.

Love2Swim 10-02-2019 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1684997)
I am not anonymously complaining. My name is listed above, and yours?

The point is that infrastructure expansion like we are experiencing is normally paid for by the developer responsible for it. Here the Developer's toadies on the Commission have not increased the per-existing impact fee (already a sweetheart rate) by 1 cent to cover it. They have increased taxes instead.

Don't you see what is going on or are you somehow connected with the Developer?
Scot, thank you for listing your name, and for your clear headed analysis. It is clear to me, that there are people on this forum that are very "pro" developer. They never, ever, let something go by that questions the developer without making excuses. Their posts look like advertisements for The Villages where the Developer is like a benign dictator that can do no wrong. Someone commented that a post "smelled like the POA". Thankfully, we have the POA to look out for us and give us a more balanced perspective of what is going on. I think, at least one poster on this board "smells like the Developer". And anyone who pays attention can easily figure out who that is. And that is okay, but people need to be cognizant and look at all sides of the equation before making up their minds.

dewilson58 10-02-2019 06:49 AM
ToTV (or at least this thread) is divided much like our country.


5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme left with conspiracies, greed & corruption. 5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme right with supporting the developer. Both sides very vocal.


With the vast majority in the middle observing "the wings" and many times being turned off by both.


The happy supporters, support after the fact. The unhappy residents & non-residents complain after the fact.




I'm a supporter of the developer, of the free market, of business success in general. Am I in the 5% (or 10%) right wingers as defined above........not sure, don't care.


There really shouldn't be much surprise here in Sumter County at the increase in taxes. If it's 10%, 20% or 30%.....it was coming. "You could see it coming" with no tax increases in over 10 years. If you didn't, shame on you.


Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact.


There is much more Sumter County land out there to be developed. If change is needed, comments on this forum will not get it done.




Have a good day.

eyc234 10-02-2019 06:55 AM
There have been lots of post on this subject with a whole lot of hearsay, accusations, slander, half truths and animosity. If some of the accusations are true there should be charges brought, people going to jail and large fines. County commissioners have been accused of being in the pocket of the developer, this is bribery and is illegal punishable by fines, removal from office and jail time on both the commissioners and the developer. There should be facts and proof of this, correct? If not then it is slander, hearsay and lies. To slander anyone because you do not like what you perceive to be wrong with no proof is not right and not only hurts the person slandered but the family and associates of the person. Have said it before stick with facts and whole truths. Fully agree that there have been questionable decisions by the commissioners but accusations of crimes need to have proof. Making blanket statements across the board shows little insight, the statements that no cost for infrastructure installation during development is paid by taxpayers or longtime citizens living in community is blatantly false, just look at every NFL stadium built with taxpayer money. If that is not corporate welfare what is.

Need to stick to facts, whole truths, provable assertions and logic.

eyc234 10-02-2019 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 1685568)
ToTV (or at least this thread) is divided much like our country.


5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme left with conspiracies, greed & corruption. 5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme right with supporting the developer. Both sides very vocal.


With the vast majority in the middle observing "the wings" and many times being turned off by both.


The happy supporters, support after the fact. The unhappy residents & non-residents complain after the fact.




I'm a supporter of the developer, of the free market, of business success in general. Am I in the 5% (or 10%) right wingers as defined above........not sure, don't care.


There really shouldn't be much surprise here in Sumter County at the increase in taxes. If it's 10%, 20% or 30%.....it was coming. "You could see it coming" with no tax increases in over 10 years. If you didn't, shame on you.


Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact.


There is much more Sumter County land out there to be developed. If change is needed, comments on this forum will not get it done.




Have a good day.
:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

Advogado 10-02-2019 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685570)
There have been lots of post on this subject with a whole lot of hearsay, accusations, slander, half truths and animosity. If some of the accusations are true there should be charges brought, people going to jail and large fines. County commissioners have been accused of being in the pocket of the developer, this is bribery and is illegal punishable by fines, removal from office and jail time on both the commissioners and the developer. There should be facts and proof of this, correct? If not then it is slander, hearsay and lies. To slander anyone because you do not like what you perceive to be wrong with no proof is not right and not only hurts the person slandered but the family and associates of the person. Have said it before stick with facts and whole truths. Fully agree that there have been questionable decisions by the commissioners but accusations of crimes need to have proof. Making blanket statements across the board shows little insight, the statements that no cost for infrastructure installation during development is paid by taxpayers or longtime citizens living in community is blatantly false, just look at every NFL stadium built with taxpayer money. If that is not corporate welfare what is.

Need to stick to facts, whole truths, provable assertions and logic.
If anything, anything at all, that I have written in this thread is incorrect, please call it to my attention and I will remedy the error.

Advogado 10-02-2019 07:03 AM
"Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact."


To claim that incentives were necessary to entice the Developer to expand The Villages is absurd.

graciegirl 10-02-2019 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685574)
"Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact."


To claim that incentives were necessary to entice the Developer to expand The Villages is absurd.
What is the percentage of developers, builders, paying for roads, infrastructure in this country compared to the city, county, state???

The expansion of the Villages does make the developer richer and it also provides work for thousands of people. People are moving to Florida in droves. Florida is now the THIRD most populous state in the union. Who wouldn't want to live here and who wouldn't want to live in The Villages.

Does the governing body of the POA still mostly have people living north of 466?

njbchbum 10-02-2019 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685574)
"Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact."


To claim that incentives were necessary to entice the Developer to expand The Villages is absurd.
Where has ANY poster "claimed" that incentives were necessary for the Developer or that the Developer even sought them out? How much pressure is put on the Developer to bring more new housing/retail units into a local community in order to boost their tax base?

njbchbum 10-02-2019 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685573)
If anything, anything at all, that I have written in this thread is incorrect, please call it to my attention and I will remedy the error.
Perhaps you might reconsider the use of your descriptor 'toadie' re the Commissioners.

Should you not wish to, perhaps you would recognize yourself as a 'toadie' for the POA?

New Englander 10-02-2019 09:29 AM
I'm not a member of the POA. I am also not anti developer. I do understand we in Sumter County were overdue for a tax increase. But 25%?

The tax payers are paying more than their fair share. Is the developer paying their fare share for all this massive expansion?
I don't know the answer to this. I'm trying to find out as much as I can.

I hope the mods don't close this thread.

Velvet 10-02-2019 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 1685568)
ToTV (or at least this thread) is divided much like our country.


5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme left with conspiracies, greed & corruption. 5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme right with supporting the developer. Both sides very vocal.


With the vast majority in the middle observing "the wings" and many times being turned off by both.


The happy supporters, support after the fact. The unhappy residents & non-residents complain after the fact.




I'm a supporter of the developer, of the free market, of business success in general. Am I in the 5% (or 10%) right wingers as defined above........not sure, don't care.


There really shouldn't be much surprise here in Sumter County at the increase in taxes. If it's 10%, 20% or 30%.....it was coming. "You could see it coming" with no tax increases in over 10 years. If you didn't, shame on you.


Yes there is a debate of what Cities, Counties, States & Federal Governments should pay vs. private industries. Incentives are part of tax base growth at all levels. The only way to truly impact incentives are proactively, not after the fact.


There is much more Sumter County land out there to be developed. If change is needed, comments on this forum will not get it done.




Have a good day.

Interesting observation. But I am missing something I feel. Are there some homeowners that are not supporting the homeowner’s own interests? Why would wherever they are on the political spectrum make a difference? Why would someone not support their best interest?

PrudentLifer 10-02-2019 09:40 AM
Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village
 
The only "family" I support is my own. I don't understand the mentality of those who support a corporate entity which exists to make a profit and only to make a profit. "It" is not human.

tophcfa 10-02-2019 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 1685568)
ToTV (or at least this thread) is divided much like our country.


5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme left with conspiracies, greed & corruption. 5% (or maybe 10%) on the extreme right with supporting the developer. Both sides very vocal.


With the vast majority in the middle observing "the wings" and many times being turned off by both.


The happy supporters, support after the fact. The unhappy residents & non-residents complain after the fact.



I'm a supporter of the developer, of the free market, of business success in general. Am I in the 5% (or 10%) right wingers as defined above........not sure, don't care.



Have a good day.
I am also a strong supporter of capitalism, the free markets, and business success in general. It is what has made our country great, and what made my career a success. I am also about as far to the right as you will ever find when it comes to fiscal responsibility. However, those beliefs don't make me a blind supporter of the developer, that has to be earned.

Going back about 3 years or longer, I was about as strong a supporter of the developer as ANYONE who regularly posts on TOV. The Villages run under the guidance of Gary Morse, and his father Harold Schwartz before him, earned my almost unconditional trust. In my opinion, they build the greatest retirement community in the world and were keenly focused on making it the best place possible for the residents. This business model worked great and resulted in both happy residents and very good profits for the developers.

About five years ago Gary Morse passed away and the next generation of the family took over operations. During the first couple of years after Gary's departure I opserved little to no change in the developers business model. However, over time, in my opinion, the new generation has begun to change the business model. Profit maximization seems to have leapfrogged resident happiness on their priority list. The tax increase discussed at nausium in this thread is the most obvious example of this. The new generation of the developers family has managed to eroded my almost unconditional trust. I sincerely hope this trend does not continue.

Please don't get me wrong, I still believe the Villages is the greatest retirement community in the world and wouldn't want to sell my home and relocate elsewhere. Even if the new generation of developers continues to operate under their revised business model, it will most likely take them my remaining life expectancy to whipe out the resident lifestyle advantage over other retirement communities that Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse created.

eyc234 10-02-2019 10:59 AM
:coolsmiley: I will be glad to do that. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1684911)
I am going to start with a riddle: How can 5 guys screw 125,000 people--- Now I mean screw financially, not physically?

The answer to the riddle: Five guys can do this by getting elected to the Sumter County Board of Commissioners, with the support of the Developer and then financially screwing everybody in Sumter County-- except the Developer and the Developer's cronies. More specifically, these 5 guys are screwing Sumter County taxpayers by giving the Developer a sweetheart deal on IMPACT FEES, thereby offloading the costs of The Villages expansion on to Sumter County taxpayers and saving the Developer an incredible amount of money. That is what we saw happening on the evening of September 25 when the Developer toadies serving as County Commissioners screwed the Sumter County taxpayers with a 25% tax increase in order to benefit the Commissioners' patron, the Developer. You have evidence not supposition or opinion that there is a deal between the developer and the commissioners?

Remember the Developer put the County Commissioners in office via his “One Sumter” 2004 legislation; his campaign contributions; his propaganda organ, The Villages Daily Sun; and his promotion of directors and presidents from his front organization, the so-called Villages Homeowners Advocates (the VHA), to political office. So the people in the county did not vote of a free will to put these citizens into the positions they hold?

Until recently, I didn't know what an impact fee was. Now I do--no thanks to the September 24th front-page article in The Developer' Daily Sun, which purported to explain property taxes, but never mentions impact fees. According to Sumter County's own website: “An impact fee is a one time charge applied to new construction. The purpose of the fee is to fund capital projects for roads (such as construction, land acquisition, [sic]). Impact fees can be charges for parks, schools, jails, ambulances and other infrastructure needs that may occur due to new development.” An impact fee is paid by the builder of a new house when he gets his building permit.

If you are on a County Commission, and you want to do a favor for the guy who put you in office and that guy is a big developer, you set a REAL LOW impact fee. To put what's going on here in perspective, let's look at Collier County. In Collier County, where the Developer doesn't have the County Commissioners in his pocket, the builder of a house in a retirement community pays an impact fee of about $20,000 per house. Again you are implying that there is an illegal deal going on, do you have proof and then call the authorities to investigate. If you have no proof of a brokered deal then it is not the truth.

In Sumter County, the Developer pays an impact fee of $901 per house. I repeat $901 or about $19,000 per house less than he would pay if he built in Collier County. Stated differently the Developer is paying an impact fee of less than 5% of what he would pay in Collier County.

This sweetheart deal in Sumter County has been in place for years. Who has been making up for the lost county revenue, i.e., who has been making a gift to the Developer? We have, through higher county taxes. Pretty easy on this one the third word says you are accusing of an illegal activity, do you have proof this exist. If not it is false.

Now the chickens have now REALLY come home to roost. The Villages is massively expanding, which is necessitating a corresponding massive expansion in roads and other infrastructure. 60,000 new houses times $19,000 per house (i.e., the difference between the Sumter County and Collier County impact-fee rates) means that the Developer will be paying impact fees of One Billion, One Hundred Forty Million Dollars less than he would pay in Collier County. BUT rather than increasing the Developer's low impact fees to cover the cost of the infrastructure expansion, the County Commissioners are increasing OUR taxes by 25%. (Incidentally, the One Billion, One Hundred Forty Million Dollar figure doesn't include the amount of the gift that the Developer has already received with respect to houses already built.) The Developer is certainly getting a good return on his campaign contributions-- at our expense.

The Daily Sun cites $348 as a typical tax increase. So remember, when you pay your taxes, you are essentially writing a check to the Developer for $348 (or whatever your actual tax increase is.)

Please mark your 2020 calendars on August 18 (the date of the Republican primary) and on November 3 (the date of the general election) as follows: VOTE OUT BUTLER, BURGESS, AND PRINTZ.

LET'S CLEAN UP SUMTER COUNTY GOVERNMENT


Again I do not see the developer or commissioners as being perfect or infallible. However this should not be a forum to pass innuendos, half truths, slanders or non provable facts.

Bogie Shooter 10-02-2019 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 1685632)
I am also a strong supporter of capitalism, the free markets, and business success in general. It is what has made our country great, and what made my career a success. I am also about as far to the right as you will ever find when it comes to fiscal responsibility. However, those beliefs don't make me a blind supporter of the developer, that has to be earned.

Going back about 3 years or longer, I was about as strong a supporter of the developer as ANYONE who regularly posts on TOV. The Villages run under the guidance of Gary Morse, and his father Harold Schwartz before him, earned my almost unconditional trust. In my opinion, they build the greatest retirement community in the world and were keenly focused on making it the best place possible for the residents. This business model worked great and resulted in both happy residents and very good profits for the developers.

About five years ago Gary Morse passed away and the next generation of the family took over operations. During the first couple of years after Gary's departure I opserved little to no change in the developers business model. However, over time, in my opinion, the new generation has begun to change the business model. Profit maximization seems to have leapfrogged resident happiness on their priority list. The tax increase discussed at nausium in this thread is the most obvious example of this. The new generation of the developers family has managed to eroded my almost unconditional trust. I sincerely hope this trend does not continue.

Please don't get me wrong, I still believe the Villages is the greatest retirement community in the world and wouldn't want to sell my home and relocate elsewhere. Even if the new generation of developers continues to operate under their revised business model, it will most likely take them my remaining life expectancy to whipe out the resident lifestyle advantage over other retirement communities that Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse created.
Would you concede that it is a new lifestyle in the new business model? Or what is the lifestyle being eliminated?

Bogie Shooter 10-02-2019 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685645)
:coolsmiley: I will be glad to do that. See below.





Again I do not see the developer or commissioners as being perfect or infallible. However this should not be a forum to pass innuendos, half truths, slanders or non provable facts.
points well taken!

FenneyFanatic 10-02-2019 11:41 AM
Am I the only one on here who is tired or negativity, anti-developer sentiment and overall grouchiness??

Advogado 10-02-2019 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbchbum (Post 1685617)
Where has ANY poster "claimed" that incentives were necessary for the Developer or that the Developer even sought them out? How much pressure is put on the Developer to bring more new housing/retail units into a local community in order to boost their tax base?
If an investment would have been made without the governmental incentive, then the incentive is a gift of taxpayer money to the recipient.

Advogado 10-02-2019 11:45 AM
Would the posters who continue to defend the County Commissioners' further enriching the Developer at taxpayer expense please identify themselves so that we can tell if they are affiliated with the Developer or County Commissioners.

graciegirl 10-02-2019 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenneyFanatic (Post 1685658)
Am I the only one on here who is tired or negativity, anti-developer sentiment and overall grouchiness??
I am tired of it. I will be eighty in November and my health is not as vibrant as when I first arrived more than a dozen years ago. I think my senses aren't as good but I feel in some ways I can see though people better than ever.

I have nothing to gain. I don't know the Morses, a half brother lives down the street but I have never spoken to him directly even though I have been in the same place during three gatherings.. I know corporations don't have hearts, but families do have ethics.

I am betting that the Morses will continue to keep this wonderful place nice and to employ people and make money for themselves and keep the economy here stable.

I am so blessed that I am known to many people personally, who I am sure see me as an annoying old lady with too much time at the computer, but some still like me.

I have no ax to grind. Wait. Yes I do. I want to keep this place nice and the values of our property high too. I am old but I am not stupid.

Advogado 10-02-2019 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685645)
:coolsmiley: I will be glad to do that. See below.





Again I do not see the developer or commissioners as being perfect or infallible. However this should not be a forum to pass innuendos, half truths, slanders or non provable facts.
There is an applicable Latin term: res ipsa loquitur, which means "the thing speaks for itself".

It is obvious what is going on when the County Commissioners vote for a property-tax increase on residents instead of an impact-fee increase on the Developer. If you cannot see what is going on here, you are either turning a blind eye toward the obvious or you are affiliated with the Developer or County Commissioners. Would you please identify yourself. I have.

In case you are not aware, County Commissioners in Florida have a sordid history. For examples, simply Google: “Florida county commissioner bribe.” Nevertheless, I have never said that anything illegal was done in this case, and I have no evidence of illegality. Bottom line: legal or not, what was done here stinks.

Advogado 10-02-2019 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 1685662)
I am tired of it. I will be eighty in November and my health is not as vibrant as when I first arrived more than a dozen years ago. I think my senses aren't as good but I feel in some ways I can see though people better than ever.

I have nothing to gain. I don't know the Morses, a half brother lives down the street but I have never spoken to him directly even though I have been in the same place during three gatherings.. I know corporations don't have hearts, but families do have ethics.

I am betting that the Morses will continue to keep this wonderful place nice and to employ people and make money for themselves and keep the economy here stable.

I am so blessed that I am known to many people personally, who I am sure see me as an annoying old lady with too much time at the computer, but some still like me.

I have no ax to grind. Wait. Yes I do. I want to keep this place nice and the values of our property high too. I am old but I am not stupid.
I agree that this is a nice place to live, I am close to your age, and I like living here. All of which has nothing to do with the tax increase.
We are essentially writing a check to the Developer every year in the amount of our tax increase. If you are ok with that, then your devotion to the Developer is well founded.


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