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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/why-taxpayers-not-developer-paying-expansion-village-298614/)

Advogado 10-02-2019 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbchbum (Post 1685618)
Perhaps you might reconsider the use of your descriptor 'toadie' re the Commissioners.

Should you not wish to, perhaps you would recognize yourself as a 'toadie' for the POA?
If I am a toadie for anybody, I am a toadie for the taxpayers of Sumter County. Would you please identify yourself so that we can determine if you are a toadie for the Developer or Commissioners.

graciegirl 10-02-2019 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685665)
If I am a toadie for anybody, I am a toadie for the taxpayers of Sumter County. Would you please identify yourself so that we can determine if you are a toadie for the Developer or Commissioners.
She isn't anybody's "toadie". She is a smart and intelligent and successful woman who has one of her homes here.

CWGUY 10-02-2019 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenneyFanatic (Post 1685658)
Am I the only one on here who is tired or negativity, anti-developer sentiment and overall grouchiness??
:ho: No you are not!

FenneyFanatic 10-02-2019 12:55 PM
I will not spend one minute of the time I have left complaining about the business dealings of a developer that created and maintains the finest active retirement community in the world! There's so many better ways to spend the time.

Velvet 10-02-2019 01:08 PM
I can see how the 25% increase went down now.

dewilson58 10-02-2019 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenneyFanatic (Post 1685658)
Am I the only one on here who is tired or negativity, anti-developer sentiment and overall grouchiness??





It's sad and they are sad people.


The grouches are sad and want to bring everyone else down to they world.


This forum will not generate support for them, it will not change the 25% increase, it will not change anything. They just need to spread their sh^t.


Some are taking aim at the current generation as greedy. It wasn't the third generation who made the first BILLION dollars, it was the prior generations. They made it by purchasing the land cheap and then selling the land at cost, plus a $1Bil profit to The Villages, then issuing the bonds...........the bonds the IRS did not like.


Being happy is just more fun.

FenneyFanatic 10-02-2019 01:35 PM
:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::bigbow::clap2: :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Love2Swim 10-02-2019 01:41 PM
Anywhere else, if residents were hit by a 25% tax increase, citizens would be up in arms. Here, on TOTV, the regulars can’t seem to find a problem with it, and, even worse, are bashing those who question it. Unbelievable. I’m hoping that people like you are in the minority, and that common sense will prevail in the future, when the taxpayers vote those responsible for the tax increase out of office.

dewilson58 10-02-2019 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2Swim (Post 1685687)
Anywhere else, if residents were hit by a 25% tax increase, citizens would be up in arms. Here, on TOTV, the regulars can’t seem to find a problem with it, and, even worse, are bashing those who question it. Unbelievable.





:mademyday:

Love2Swim 10-02-2019 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Franklin (Post 1685114)
I brought up Impact fees when I first heard of this tax increase. I am from a county in Southwest Florida, where the Commissioners were also in the pockets of the developers. Taxes held pretty steady until the Commissioners dropped the impact fees, then our taxes went up. The Commissioner's response was that impact fees would stymy growth. I moved to that county when the population was around 150,000 people. Today there are close to 800,000 people, and it's a parking lot on the roadways, even in the summer.

Personal responsibility means that those who are impacting the roads and schools and other areas should be the one's paying for their impact, not the people who already live in a community. We need leaders, not puppets.
:bigbow:

eyc234 10-02-2019 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2Swim (Post 1685687)
Anywhere else, if residents were hit by a 25% tax increase, citizens would be up in arms. Here, on TOTV, the regulars can’t seem to find a problem with it, and, even worse, are bashing those who question it. Unbelievable. I’m hoping that people like you are in the minority, and that common sense will prevail in the future, when the taxpayers vote those responsible for the tax increase out of office.
Did not get hit with 25%, only 12 and had 15 years of no increases. Taxes are still lower than a majority of places. When you vote them out you will still have the same issue, not enough money to run the county. If you raise the fee on the developer you raise the fee on all builders. I am sure the small builders will love that.

dewilson58 10-02-2019 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685690)
Did not get hit with 25%, only 12 and had 15 years of no increases. Taxes are still lower than a majority of places. When you vote them out you will still have the same issue, not enough money to run the county. If you raise the fee on the developer you raise the fee on all builders. I am sure the small builders will love that.





Facts & Logic..................nice addition to this thread.




:clap2:

Velvet 10-02-2019 02:17 PM
What might make the tax increase more palatable, just saying, if those who were asked to pay it received more services for themselves in return.

manaboutown 10-02-2019 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685690)
Did not get hit with 25%, only 12 and had 15 years of no increases. Taxes are still lower than a majority of places. When you vote them out you will still have the same issue, not enough money to run the county. If you raise the fee on the developer you raise the fee on all builders. I am sure the small builders will love that.
Perhaps taxes on individual houses have remained level or even diminished over an extended period of time because most of the infrastructure for buildout on the land owned/controlled by the developer was already in place through some prior financial arrangement such as the municipal bonds that were not truly municipal bonds. Every new house that was built over this period of time added to tax revenue and of course had a bond lien placed on it when sold to cover water, sewer, utilities, streets, etc.. For example, if 2,000 houses were built in a year and the average property tax on each was $3,000, these new houses collectively would add $6,000,000 to property tax revenue every single year from that year forward. As many thousands of houses have been built every year over the last 10 to 12 years total county tax revenue has enormously increased every year, even if tax rates have remained the same or been slightly reduced.

Now, acres and acres of newly acquired raw land, essentially enough land to double the size of The Villages, require infrastructure to be put in place before houses can be built and sold. What to do? Where can the money be found. Aha! We can increase the tax rates on the existing homes all over Sumter County. Let the taxpayers pick up the bill. Why not? What a great idea? If we do it right they may grumble but they won't be able to stop us...

eyc234 10-02-2019 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685663)
There is an applicable Latin term: res ipsa loquitur, which means "the thing speaks for itself".

It is obvious what is going on when the County Commissioners vote for a property-tax increase on residents instead of an impact-fee increase on the Developer. If you cannot see what is going on here, you are either turning a blind eye toward the obvious or you are affiliated with the Developer or County Commissioners. Would you please identify yourself. I have.

In case you are not aware, County Commissioners in Florida have a sordid history. For examples, simply Google: “Florida county commissioner bribe.” Nevertheless, I have never said that anything illegal was done in this case, and I have no evidence of illegality. Bottom line: legal or not, what was done here stinks.
You miss the fact I was stating. You again make an innuendo that something illegal is going on between the developer and the county commissioners above. All I asked is do you have proof or evidence submissable in court to prosecute for these nefarious deeds. This is a country that the legal system still says you are innocent until proven guilty even if that is not what people like. As far as the history of bad county commissioners, I go further and do not trust any politician. But I will not condemn, slander, post half truths, make innuendos or degrade people without knowing the truth backed up by facts. Your bottom line is an opinion and for some, mostly those outside TV it will be a burden that should be looked to assist them with relief/assistance.

If you would like to speak with me feel free to send me a private message and I will be glad to speak with you about myself. Believe me I am not nor ever have been in any way connected to the developer or any government entity.

PrudentLifer 10-02-2019 02:29 PM
Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685690)
Did not get hit with 25%, only 12 and had 15 years of no increases. Taxes are still lower than a majority of places. When you vote them out you will still have the same issue, not enough money to run the county. If you raise the fee on the developer you raise the fee on all builders. I am sure the small builders will love that.


Unless the bond is satisfied. The increase would of course be at a much higher percentage.

perrjojo 10-02-2019 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 1685048)
Been reading anti developer from the same source for many years.
I am not and have not ever been anti developer but this is a new generation of the developers family and I am not liking what I am seeing. It’s is not so much greed for money but greed for power. Look at the impending changes to the Wildwood city charter.

Love2Swim 10-02-2019 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by manaboutown (Post 1685701)
Perhaps taxes on individual houses have remained level or even diminished over an extended period of time because most of the infrastructure for buildout on the land owned/controlled by the developer was already in place through some prior financial arrangement such as the municipal bonds that were not truly municipal bonds. Every new house that was built over this period of time added to tax revenue and of course had a bond lien placed on it when sold to cover water, sewer, utilities, streets, etc.. For example, if 2,000 houses were built in a year and the average property tax on each was $3,000, these new houses collectively would add $6,000,000 to property tax revenue every single year from that year forward. As many thousands of houses have been built every year over the last 10 to 12 years total county tax revenue has enormously increased every year, even if tax rates have remained the same or been slightly reduced.

Now, acres and acres of newly acquired raw land, essentially enough land to double the size of The Villages, require infrastructure to be put in place before houses can be built and sold. What to do? Where can the money be found. Aha! We can increase the tax rates on the existing homes all over Sumter County. Let the taxpayers pick up the bill. Why not? What a great idea? If we do it right they may grumble but they won't be able to stop us...

Thank you for providing facts, and logic.

perrjojo 10-02-2019 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 1685632)
I am also a strong supporter of capitalism, the free markets, and business success in general. It is what has made our country great, and what made my career a success. I am also about as far to the right as you will ever find when it comes to fiscal responsibility. However, those beliefs don't make me a blind supporter of the developer, that has to be earned.

Going back about 3 years or longer, I was about as strong a supporter of the developer as ANYONE who regularly posts on TOV. The Villages run under the guidance of Gary Morse, and his father Harold Schwartz before him, earned my almost unconditional trust. In my opinion, they build the greatest retirement community in the world and were keenly focused on making it the best place possible for the residents. This business model worked great and resulted in both happy residents and very good profits for the developers.

About five years ago Gary Morse passed away and the next generation of the family took over operations. During the first couple of years after Gary's departure I opserved little to no change in the developers business model. However, over time, in my opinion, the new generation has begun to change the business model. Profit maximization seems to have leapfrogged resident happiness on their priority list. The tax increase discussed at nausium in this thread is the most obvious example of this. The new generation of the developers family has managed to eroded my almost unconditional trust. I sincerely hope this trend does not continue.

Please don't get me wrong, I still believe the Villages is the greatest retirement community in the world and wouldn't want to sell my home and relocate elsewhere. Even if the new generation of developers continues to operate under their revised business model, it will most likely take them my remaining life expectancy to whipe out the resident lifestyle advantage over other retirement communities that Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse created.
You have expressed my thoughts exactly. This is no longer the Harold Schwartz/Gary Morse modelmfor The Villages. Change is inevitable but not always for the best outcome.

dewilson58 10-02-2019 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2Swim (Post 1685710)
Thank you for providing facts, and logic.





Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.





:a040:

perrjojo 10-02-2019 03:26 PM
This thread is about the impact of tax increases on Villagers. What about the rest of Sumter who will be paying this increase as well? For the most part others in Sumter County really dislike Villagers. This tax increase will be a giant burden on many of them and they are not reaping the benefits. I want to be a good neighbor and know that ALL of Sumter County is benefiting from this tax increase. I want all of Sumter to know that we are not the self-important, entitled folks that most think we are.

Velvet 10-02-2019 03:33 PM
Well, that is another thing to consider, and, does anyone care about them?

manaboutown 10-02-2019 03:36 PM
The remainder of Sumter County has historically been one of the poorer parts of Florida. Even what may be to some if not most Villagers a trivial tax increase likely will be felt deeply by these folks. The 'One Sumter' essentially stripped them of electing any councilor(s) and having any representation at all in how the county is operated.

Challenger 10-02-2019 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by manaboutown (Post 1685726)
The remainder of Sumter County has historically been one of the poorer parts of Florida. Even what may be to some if not most Villagers a trivial tax increase likely will be felt deeply by these folks. The 'One Sumter' essentially stripped them of electing any councilor(s) and having any representation at all in how the county is operated.
good points. However three very poor towns have now become flushed with money from tax revenues generated within the boundaries of the Villages. TV does not need the same Police protection per home as most of the rest of the county. Population of 125,000+/- and very small school costs. I'm willing to listen to the arguments but there is so much misunderstanding and wrong info on this thread

Velvet 10-02-2019 04:02 PM
My bad (Velvet slaps her wrist). Thank you for caring about them.

Bogie Shooter 10-02-2019 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by manaboutown (Post 1685726)
The remainder of Sumter County has historically been one of the poorer parts of Florida. Even what may be to some if not most Villagers a trivial tax increase likely will be felt deeply by these folks. The 'One Sumter' essentially stripped them of electing any councilor(s) and having any representation at all in how the county is operated.
How has that changed since The Villages? Whole lot of them poor people now have good jobs. Just sayin....

perrjojo 10-02-2019 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet (Post 1685725)
Well, that is another thing to consider, and, does anyone care about them?
I hope so!

perrjojo 10-02-2019 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter (Post 1685738)
How has that changed since The Villages? Whole lot of them poor people now have good jobs. Just sayin....
Yes, it has changed for some but only some.

manaboutown 10-02-2019 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 1685715)
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.





:a040:

Indeed.

The Villages copied and over time improved upon on Del Webb's inventive Sun City concept. Buy cheap land outside a city, build a senior community of closely spaced small houses, provide golf courses, rec centers and a shopping center. Even allow driving around the community in golf carts. The original Sun City opened 01/01/1960. Sun City, Arizona - Wikipedia

I have posted these before. Some have enjoyed watching them as have I. Notice how they drive around in golf carts at times.

Del Webb Sun City AZ Promo The Beginning Part I - YouTube

Del Webb Sun City AZ Promo - The Beginning Part 2.wmv - YouTube

Carla B 10-02-2019 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by perrjojo (Post 1685742)
Yes, it has changed for some but only some.
Yes, and affordable housing for the workforce required to run this vast place hasn't kept up.

Northwoods 10-02-2019 09:13 PM
I love living here. I think The Developer has created an amazing place to live. I don't have an issue with The Developer making money. BUT - I don't want to pay more than my fair share. Do I think "government" in Sumter County could use a little more oversight and "scrutiny"? Yes. I think The Developer might not be paying their fair share. But do I want to replace current Commissioners with people who want to screw the Developer at every turn? No.
So I want to make sure I vote for people who are knowledgeable about government. Know how to be fair and reasonable. Know how to negotiate.

PrudentLifer 10-02-2019 09:50 PM
Why are the taxpayers, and not the developer, paying for the expansion of the village
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla B (Post 1685751)
Yes, and affordable housing for the workforce required to run this vast place hasn't kept up.


That's about to change with the vast amount of housing planned across from Pinellas Plaza on 466A.

Challenger 10-03-2019 02:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwoods (Post 1685794)
I love living here. I think The Developer has created an amazing place to live. I don't have an issue with The Developer making money. BUT - I don't want to pay more than my fair share. Do I think "government" in Sumter County could use a little more oversight and "scrutiny"? Yes. I think The Developer might not be paying their fair share. But do I want to replace current Commissioners with people who want to screw the Developer at every turn? No.
So I want to make sure I vote for people who are knowledgeable about government. Know how to be fair and reasonable. Know how to negotiate.
entirely too reasonable. Try again.

Two Bills 10-03-2019 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyc234 (Post 1685690)
Did not get hit with 25%, only 12 and had 15 years of no increases. Taxes are still lower than a majority of places. When you vote them out you will still have the same issue, not enough money to run the county. If you raise the fee on the developer you raise the fee on all builders. I am sure the small builders will love that.
I thought the argument was to raise the Developer's fee to nearer what the small builder has to pay?

Love2Swim 10-03-2019 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwoods (Post 1685794)
I love living here. I think The Developer has created an amazing place to live. I don't have an issue with The Developer making money. BUT - I don't want to pay more than my fair share. Do I think "government" in Sumter County could use a little more oversight and "scrutiny"? Yes. I think The Developer might not be paying their fair share. But do I want to replace current Commissioners with people who want to screw the Developer at every turn? No.
So I want to make sure I vote for people who are knowledgeable about government. Know how to be fair and reasonable. Know how to negotiate.
I don't think a single person wants to vote in people who want to "screw the developer" at every turn. But we'd like to have people who will represent US and have OUR interests at heart, not the developer's.

dewilson58 10-03-2019 06:58 AM
Realistically Impact Fees don't impact the Developer.


IF the Impact Fee tripled, the Developer would just increase the price of the new houses by $2k. This would not slow sales. Every house in Southern Oaks would have sold if the price was $2k higher.


The Developer will make their 30% margin with a $1,000 Impact Fee or a $3,000 Impact Fee. It has nothing to do with Developer greed...............they will make their margins and they will continue to sell their new homes.


A friend is moving from an area by 466a to Southern Oaks. They have signed on the line. Construction will not start until February. What a great back-log. $2,000 additional fee would not have impacted the Developer.


Look for greed, controlling the commissioner, fraud some where else.




:ho:

eyc234 10-03-2019 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2Swim (Post 1685818)
I don't think a single person wants to vote in people who want to "screw the developer" at every turn. But we'd like to have people who will represent US and have OUR interests at heart, not the developer's.
I would think citizens would be looking for people that are fair on both sides of the fence. Looking at the facts, the needs of all and working for the best compromise that will benefit the most for society as a whole. That is an extremely tall order now days but we can dream.:pray:

Advogado 10-03-2019 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 1685831)
Realistically Impact Fees don't impact the Developer.


IF the Impact Fee tripled, the Developer would just increase the price of the new houses by $2k. This would not slow sales. Every house in Southern Oaks would have sold if the price was $2k higher.


The Developer will make their 30% margin with a $1,000 Impact Fee or a $3,000 Impact Fee. It has nothing to do with Developer greed...............they will make their margins and they will continue to sell their new homes.


A friend is moving from an area by 466a to Southern Oaks. They have signed on the line. Construction will not start until February. What a great back-log. $2,000 additional fee would not have impacted the Developer.


Look for greed, controlling the commissioner, fraud some where else.




:ho:
I'm not sure where you studied economics or ran a business, but before retirement you must have lived in a communist country. In a capitalistic one, competition prevents a seller from simply upping his price to cover increased costs.

The Developer would have had to absorb some or all of the increased impact fees. That is why he had his County Commissioners raise our taxes instead of his impact fees.

In any event, no matter how much of the fees he would have had to absorb, the cost of the increased infrastructure would not have fallen on the existing Sumter County taxpayers.

bonrich 10-03-2019 07:25 AM
Then there those of us who are not full time residents of Florida, some by choice and others by personal obligations. We have to pay the same taxes as residents and because we cannot get the Homestead deduction, pay more. Our costs to live here, albeit part time, still go on when we are away from Florida. Resident and nonresident costs continue no matter where you live. We have no say in what is going on in Sumter County as far as taxes, Commissioners, etc. We are the flotsam and jetsam of Sumter County, equal in all, but no say in our future and have to live with what is decided by full timers. All those potential votes that cannot be counted, but the money we pay for the taxes are.
Frustrating is one word to use...…..

OrangeBlossomBaby 10-03-2019 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 1685838)
I'm not sure where you studied economics or ran a business, but before retirement you must have lived in a communist country. In a capitalistic one, competition prevents a seller from simply upping his price to cover increased costs.

The Developer would have had to absorb some or all of the increased impact fees. That is why he had his County Commissioners raise our taxes instead of his impact fees.

In any event, no matter how much of the fees he would have had to absorb, the cost of the increased infrastructure would not have fallen on the existing Sumter County taxpayers.
I think you're both missing the point. Raising an impact fee to $2000 gets passed to the homeowner. That's fine. The homeowner is now on the hook for an extra $1100 (since there's already a $900 fee built in).

So when he buys the home, then $2000 of the sales price covers the cost of the impact fee. No biggie. Why? Here's why:

Compare to the TAX INCREASE:

The homeowner now pays an extra $xxx (average almost $400) PER YEAR until he sells his home. If he lives in that home 10 years, he's just paid (an average of) $4000 for the same "cost" that the developer would have only paid $2000 for.

The homeowner gets screwed by way of continual costs. The impact fee is a one-time fee. The tax is yearly.


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