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-   The Villages, Florida, Non Villages Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/)
-   -   Are America's police becoming too militarized? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/americas-police-becoming-too-militarized-123917/)

redwitch 08-14-2014 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyatlast (Post 923301)
I think throwing molotov cocktails while rioting, burning and looting innocent civilians' stores or property is a "terrorist" attack, just as setting up pressure cookers full of nails and other shrapnel to explode and blow innocent bystanders' legs off and kill them was "terrorism" at an historic, celebrated athletic event.
Technically, I suppose you could call them acts of terrorism since they did involve violence and tried to make a political statement. However, I don't think the rioters in Missouri would be considered terrorists by today's meaning of the word any more than the civil rights riots of the 70's were considered acts of terrorism. I can remember seeing cities on fire and lots of looting after a team won a Super Bowl. Are those acts of terrorism? What about the riots after the Rodney King verdict? Terrorism? In all of these instances, Molotov cocktails were thrown, stores were looted, cars were burned. People even died. They were riots but not acts of terrorism.

Do I believe the police should be able to defend themselves and their citizens? You better believe I do. I've felt for a long time that our police should be well-trained in the use of automatic weapons and armed with the same. But rocket launchers and tanks? No way, no how. America should not end up looking like Gaza or having scenes like Tianmen Square. And if you think these couldn't happen here, remember Kent State.

Patty55 08-15-2014 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mflasch (Post 923413)
The bad guys get more and more powerful weapons, so I am all for the police having whatever capability is necessary to deal with them. As far as the Missouri problem, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the definition of "protest" vs "riot." Of course this isn't the first time that they use this as and excuse to "loot and burn" and maybe Al Sharpton should address this problem instead of continuing his inflammatory remarks.
Sharpton address the problem? Not likely. IMO the man has been a chit stirring hate monger since the Tawanna Brawley days.

rubicon 08-15-2014 06:12 AM
Indeed law enforcement walk a very precarious line and one way or another one group is not going to be pleased.

It would appear too often that these out of control protests are the work of outside agitators. To be sure sensible black leadership is lacking here.

The news media just exacerbate this issue by posing it as a national thing but its not its local. Its not Rodney King, Watts, etc

Black leadership needs to create an open and honest conversation with the black community and begin to penetrate and remove this misconception of its "victim mentality". Until and unless this is done disturbances such as this will continue because it is very easy to stoke an amber into a full fledged flame

Are the police becoming too militarized? This question losses its potency if it is only directed in connection with St. Louis. Rather look at it from the country as a whole. Criminal elements here, such as gangs, and crossing the border raising the stakes. Programs such as stop and frisk as proactive programs along with community education need to be increased and supported by politicians

mflasch 08-15-2014 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VT2TV (Post 923457)
When I was being raised, if you had a police officer tell you to do something, the response would have been "Yes Sir", and you did it. Or if any adult told you to do anything for that matter. I think that there are times when law enforcement uses excessive force, but I can't totally blame them for everything they are accused of doing. Instead of saying "Yes Sir" these days, the accused will fight and struggle, and often the officer is in danger of being hurt himself. Not to mention when the riot crowds arrive. They could care less if they cause injury to the police or even just bystanders. So, even if the officers are doing the right thing, you get the adrenalin pumping, and the crowds are yelling threats at the police, and sometimes they might use excessive force. I am not condoning that, but just explaining it. I have known many excellent police officers, and the way they are treated these days is far worse than most people know. Their lives are frequently on the line for just trying to do their job. There is not enough money to pay me to do their job. Again, I am not condoning when someone is hurt, when they are struggling, the officers get that adrenaline going, it may make them stronger than they realize. But nothing can justify the way the mobs respond by robbing, destroying other people's property, and hurting pther people. So it may come to using more military like force just to protect the innocent people. Just my opinion
You are right on point. If you look back in time at past incidents like this, including Rodney King, if the culprits would have just done what the police officer told them to do, there would not have been an incident. But instead, they have a total disregard for the law and it leads to incidents like this and gives the "community" an excuse to riot. I never understood why they burn and loot their own community businesses, but I guess they look at it as a chance to get a bunch of free stuff.

collie1228 08-15-2014 07:20 AM
Yes. And this is the first (and most probably the last) time I've been on the same side as Al Sharpton.

BarryRX 08-15-2014 07:43 AM
I think the problem is that when you carry a very big hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. The police are most often the thin blue line that protects us from a host of very bad people. They are heroic and brave, and they are the ones who run towards the sound of gunfire. They perform countless acts of heroism and kindness that never make the newspapers. However, because of the dangerous and often thankless job they do, they can become a "closed society", only socializing with other police personnel. When that happens, there can be an "us against them" mentality that can lead to over reactions, brutality, and other misuses of power. One of the fears of our founding fathers was to have an army being boarded in our cities. If we dress our police in army type uniforms, and we arm them with army type weapons, we then have an army patrolling our streets in everything but title. Since the 1990's, the crime rate in this country has been dropping. But because of the terrorist attack of 9/11 we have equipped our police with many military type options, because they must now be prepared to respond to the very worst scenarios and do so safely. However, when that equipment, training, and mindset become a part of everyday normal police operations, I think we have the beginning of a real problem.

greg&sueby 08-15-2014 08:16 AM
it now seams that every police dept. no matter how small, has a swat team,
usually maned by ex military. Evan some small police depts, have armored trucks, sold as surplus by our military. The founding fathers made sure the military could not be used on our soil, but now you can not tell the differance between the police or the military. I admit hteir jobs are very difficult, but in the name of terrorism, we are losing our freedoms. Mark my words, the time is comming when
groups of 3 or more will be stopped (papers, id ect), and swat teams sent for something as minor as a phone tip of suspect behavior. I come from Michigan, and have seen teams sent to the wrong address, and killed innocent citizens. Its bad enough you can be held without trial, or access to a lawyer, all in the name of National Security. To be a free society, you have to assume some risks along the way. People today think the Government is the answer to all our problems. We are not allowed to think for ourselves, or evan to protect ourselves anymore. I for one think this is a very dangerous slippery slope that America will regret. But only when it is to late.

TNLAKEPANDA 08-15-2014 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyatlast (Post 923227)
It depends. If my first grade child were hiding in the bathroom of his classroom at Sandy Hook Elementary, I'd be glad to see SWAT teams on the roof.
We are not talking about SWAT team. We are talking about Military equipment. If you don't have at least some concerns about local police having such equipment you need to read more history books. Don't be a fool.

Walt. 08-15-2014 09:27 AM
Yes... it's almost gotten to the point of parody. Somebody takes a hostage in some suburban neighborhood and 200 police show up in swat team gear (including camoflage suits, armored personnel carriers, etc). What used to be a 2 hour stand-off with a handful of police surrounding a house turns into people playing soldiers on D-Day.
As far as Furguson goes... the police showed up with all that gear and equipment. They then proceeded to watch as a mob ran wild looting and burning. Hell... you could do that in Bermuda Shorts and a t-shirt. Maybe they should sell all that stuff to the Kurds.
Police need to be police not an army.

billethkid 08-15-2014 10:06 AM
SWAT teams and the like, heavily equipped with "offensive" type equipment have been around for years. Being quite effective at what they do when called upon.

Today's society that has/is/continues to become more tolerant/permissive of wrong doing has led to a breed of lawless individuals that has no fear of the police.

When incidents like the current MO situation arise, the media, the special interest groups, the Sharptons, the president all get their legal magnifying glass out and beat the drum for their favorite personal indulgence. They then procede to extrapolate an isolated incident to a national level as if it was the norm in every city in America.

And this particular event in MO is now spawning a splinter subject of how heavily armed are those who risk their lives every day to protect us...INSTEAD....of focusing on the perpetrators.

SHoulder fired missles and tanks :1rotfl::1rotfl:.....how about the missing information as in just exactly what police department has them....how many.....you know the old fashioned need for facts.

I personally believe the police should have what ever gear/eqipment it takes to give them what they need to aprehend and neutralize the bad guys.

Challenger 08-15-2014 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNLAKEPANDA (Post 923560)
We are not talking about SWAT team. We are talking about Military equipment. If you don't have at least some concerns about local police having such equipment you need to read more history books. Don't be a fool.
Why include the last sentence-- To inflame? Too often we cut off worthwhile dialogue by such tactics

justjim 08-15-2014 11:44 AM
Good Points
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryRX (Post 923520)
I think the problem is that when you carry a very big hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. The police are most often the thin blue line that protects us from a host of very bad people. They are heroic and brave, and they are the ones who run towards the sound of gunfire. They perform countless acts of heroism and kindness that never make the newspapers. However, because of the dangerous and often thankless job they do, they can become a "closed society", only socializing with other police personnel. When that happens, there can be an "us against them" mentality that can lead to over reactions, brutality, and other misuses of power. One of the fears of our founding fathers was to have an army being boarded in our cities. If we dress our police in army type uniforms, and we arm them with army type weapons, we then have an army patrolling our streets in everything but title. Since the 1990's, the crime rate in this country has been dropping. But because of the terrorist attack of 9/11 we have equipped our police with many military type options, because they must now be prepared to respond to the very worst scenarios and do so safely. However, when that equipment, training, and mindset become a part of everyday normal police operations, I think we have the beginning of a real problem.
You make some very good points. Government tends to overreact----working for the "Government" in another lifetime----Ive seen it many many times. It can be a fine line between our Freedom and overreaction by our Government.

What I saw on television for several nights was definitely what I am talking about. Its a slippery slope that our country must avoid.

On the other hand, the police doing their everyday job, protect our communities from some very bad people. They earn and deserve our respect for a job well done. :thumbup:

shcisamax 08-15-2014 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNLAKEPANDA (Post 923560)
We are not talking about SWAT team. We are talking about Military equipment. If you don't have at least some concerns about local police having such equipment you need to read more history books. Don't be a fool.
Right on!

sunnyatlast 08-15-2014 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNLAKEPANDA (Post 923560)
We are not talking about SWAT team. We are talking about Military equipment. If you don't have at least some concerns about local police having such equipment you need to read more history books. Don't be a fool.
Being a "fool", I've been reading about how local police units GET all this military equipment!

Maybe others here should read about Congress and the Pentagon's role in that, too:

"One program often credited as a source of military resources deployed by police department is the Defense Department’s Excess Property Program — also known as the 1033 program — which gives equipment, including weapons, to law enforcement agencies.

Transfers through the program have increased dramatically in recent years.

In 2006, it made 34,708 transfers worth $33 million to law enforcement agencies. Last year, the number grew to 51,779 transfers valued at $420 million, according to data provided by the Defense Logistics Agency, which manages the program. Through April of this year, the agency had made 15,516 transfers of equipment worth $206 million.



Militarized police in Ferguson unsettles some; Pentagon gives cities equipment - The Washington Post

rubicon 08-15-2014 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittygilchrist (Post 923419)
Where, why, when?
kitty: Of all the going back and forth on this issue your three words describe it best and in my humble view can also be expressed in one word "depends"


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