God did not need a bang for his creation. Either one believes God was our creator or not and there are still many things that will never be clear but that is where faith comes in. God does not owe it to us for us to understand. To seek God you must first believe that he is. If one has experienced the drawing power of God and salvation after repentance for themselves then they have their confirmation and they know for certain what they have is real.

Hebrews Chapter 11 is often referred to as the Chapter of Faith. These examples are only a few of many to help us realize that faith is necessary.

Hebrews Chapter 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Very good post. However, I would add there is no right religion, wrong religion OR NO RELIGION. For some to use religion as a way to make sense of the world and our existence is total arrogance. Science keeps searching for answers and those answers keep evolving, however, some regions believe they are the only answer. Unfortunate!

In 1992 the Catholic Church finally agreed that the Earth revolved around the sun.
It is good to have faith, but faith should not be used to oppose the free search for truth.

I am interested in the basis for that sentence. Judaism IIRC, has absolutely nothing to say about Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammad, or the great pumpkin.

Arrogance is when a person disdains for no good reason. We are not all born with the same attitude, abilities or needs. Some by their innate personality must show themselves superior by making scathing remarks to people who in no way have personally provoked them. Or harmed anyone.

If you believe in God, do it quietly, He will do the work. If you do not believe in God, do it quietly, because you can hurt and harm people who do and will not change their minds.

If you are born with a few more IQ points than most, use them for the betterment of mankind. That does not always mean you have common sense or compassion.

Arrogance is a word to describe some that try to show themselves superior by criticizing people who are peacefully living their lives with a gentle faith to sustain them.

I can only think that tennisnut meant ignorance not arrogance? The sentence doesn't make sense otherwise.

President Obama was right - You folks need to read your Bibles
 

I found this on the internet which I thought was very good - Science in the Bible – Correct or Way outdated? | Shoresh David Brandon

Until man can grab a cup of the sun and bring here to analyze - I have to believe we are as intelligent as the grasshopper.

Here we go again. How can a person have a failure to open their hearts to God. Based on what frames of reference, another person's interpretations. Why is this other human being is more infallible than me regardless if we are speaking about faith or science? While a specific scientific theory may prove accurate to the situation at hand it doesn't mean it has relevance to the universe question. I am open to any theory but really man's knowledge is built on man and while it is all we have it has proven faulty over and over again

To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.

Oops, looks like I was wrong.:shrug:

Yes, we all have our beliefs and it is very personal one. There are hundreds of religions all trying to explain the same question.

I can't be a believer, I can't be an atheist I can't be agnostic because to be any of the preceding requires proof that a supreme being is real or that a supreme being is a figment of man's imagination. I can't even be arrogant or ignorant because that also requires the same criteria. Heck we don't know if any of us really exist. It think and so I am. Or is it I think, I think and so I am ,maybe
The tests ,the arguments, the theories are all man made and all they amount to is arguing man's interpretations of man's existence an existence many conclude is exclusive to this entire universe.

Big Bang and the Bible
 

Who's on first, what's on second and I don't know is on third.

Atheist, Agonostic, Beliver, Non-believer...it's all BS. Nothing more than labels.

Moral Relativism. One religion is as good or the same as the next. Well, I can't agree at all. Relativism is a quickly disposed of "stance" for the intellectually lazy and morally clueless amongst us. Mother Theresa is the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. A wild eyed beheader is morally the same as a medical missionary. And so on.

Logic demands honesty.

God doesn't work by democracy, human concepts of equality, nor feel good false kumbaya emotions.

I am a stumbling, bumbling Christian who worships in the Anglo Catholic faith and Church.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Like the rest of my knuckle dragging simple ilk, I believe God doesn't lie. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He didn't say "I am one of the Ways…."

And that's all I have to say about that.

What does religion have to do with morality ?

[QUOTE=Tennisnut;943607]To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.[/QUOTE]

The only people that have evangelized to us in the last thirty years were the Jehovah Witnesses.

Then there are those people who by their lives and their warmth and their kindness draw you to them and make you wonder what is their secret, but they don't SAY anything.

What exactly does the pink high lighted mean? I don't know of any missions by Spanish and white shirts on bikes? Never in all of my 75 years have I seen what you speak of.

I would say no, we can't. Choosing hasn't been my experience. I didn't choose anything and I have no idea how anyone would go about choosing.

I did choose lots of things in my life so I know how choosing works. But when it comes to faith as it is set forth in the Bible, like a prescription, I don't see it like so many others do.

I don't mind thinking and accepting the idea that there might be some higher power in the universe. But I don't know what it is and I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good.

Yahoo search: The Jewish view of Jesus

Should I have said preacher instead of philosopher?

Precisely, Mother Theresa is not the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin are not religions. Wasn't I talking about religion?

Okay, so let's slow down and try using some honesty in your comparisons.

I'm not sure I understand what that has to do with what I said.

Maybe I should have written "Mother Theresa's morals are the same as Adolph Hitler's morals." Your words were "Religious freedom and its moral relativism…" You joined together a man made civil right with an odious world view and philosophy which must lead to no morality. Slow down and consider it.

There is a big difference between the Divine mandate that we love (i.e. care about) all others and the modern half baked "feeling" that each religion is as good as the next. To a believer, and indeed anyone who slows down and considers the facts that is simply not true.

I note that there is no reply to the statement of Jesus. So be it. I can't persuade anyone, but I can and will pray for you. :)

onslowe: I totally agree with your position on moral relativism because this sliding scale technique is another way of saying no matter what one does I can't be wrong. It give one an excuse. It rationalizes bad behavior . Mother Theresa in my view was an excellent example of pure love.
The manner in which you write tells me how deeply and completely you believe and how pure your love ,for God and His word. That deserve respect

Thank you for your kind words, Rubicon. :)

I have sat in the chair of unbelief. It's usually a prerequisite before one comes to belief as we all start out as unbelievers to some extent. I am no longer sitting there because I am now a firm believer in a Creator God who desires to have a personal relationship with his creation. I've come face to face with him and have no doubt He is real and very much alive.

For those who believe we should be quiet and say nothing I have to strongly disagree. If you have any belief at all in Christ, you know his central message was "go and tell" and was one of the last things he said before he left this earth. Many of the early church went to their death "telling" and were not ashamed to do so. Many are losing their lives today in other parts of the world for doing this same thing. We don't get to heaven on warm fuzzy feelings. It's not about doing good...it's not even about being good. It's about believing in and putting our trust in the one who did the most good for all of us.

To keep quiet and not say anything is akin to seeing a bridge washed out ahead on a dark night and not warning those approaching the danger that lies ahead. If you know an alternate route with a safe bridge that is sturdy with no danger of failing isn't it most loving to speak up and warn those approaching the washed out bridge? The physical is always an example of a spiritual truth. We are all traveling along a road with many obstacles and dangers. Just because it's in the spiritual realm doesn't make it any less dangerous. In fact it's much more dangerous than the physical because it has eternal consequences. So that's why I put my trust in the only one that loves me with a dying love who came to warn us about the danger and point to the bridge that he himself built for us that will never fall apart.

We were all given the same measure of faith
 

and in the end it is what you do with your faith.

We are called to use all the resources God has given us and work diligently at our callings, maximizing the return for the Master while we expectantly await His return.

I am amazed by the people who do not know Jesus Christ is the only way ):

The wheat and the tares are being separated.

VPL -- don't you think that "not choosing" is a decision and therefore you have chosen?

". . . . . I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good." I don't believe that either. As a Christian, I want my behaviors to be good behaviors, not because others may say they are good, but because they are simply the right thing to do. And there have been a few times when I actually accomplished that. :) Probably not nearly often enough but fortunately God has provided all of us with the opportunity for Grace. I don't deserve it, but it is there if I believe.

So, be good kids, otherwise Santa won't bring presents. :)
A great discussion on science's relationship to religious beliefs has turned to proselytizing.

I have read this thread and I have picked the people I like the most. Most of those have NOT commented on this thread but a few have shown amazing strength and patience in the face of being taunted about their beliefs.

This is all new to me. I have yet to live anywhere where people were disdained for their faith.

Part of our morality is based on trying to do good and avoiding bad. It keeps most of us law abiding. I always trust people with a moral compass more with my possessions and my feelings than I do people who look down on rule followers.

I have to think that these attacks, and that is what they are, by people who call church goers and believers in God ignorant and arrogant may be in part due to a tiny feeling somewhere that they could be wrong and they might be missing something. Or maybe they just don't care about anyone's feelings other than their own.

I don't know. But I know I feel much worse now knowing what I know about some of my fellow villagers.

The Atheists and Agnostics that I know and admire do not try to hurt or criticize people who think differently than they do.

To each his own. I don't like or dislike anyone because of their religious beliefs.

sorry
 

Sorry you missed my point.

See "Two more Frogs a comin'"

As a recovered Cafeteria Catholic I like to keep my views to myself and think the world (and this board)would be a better place if more people did the same.

I do have a real question though, not being snarky but do you all actually quote these bible passages from memory or do you look them up each time? If it's from memory, color me impressed. (I thought I was doing great remembering SOHCAHTOA.)

Isn't there a religious forum on this board?

exactly......:agree:

....who came first the chicken or the egg.....[/QUOTE]

Some think the rooster!:icon_wink:

Raised a German Lutheran and we didn't study the bible so much as we were told in Saturday Catechism class about what the books were about and were expected to memorize the books names in order, old and new testament, as a test before Confirmation. I can get through first and second Samuel and go blank nowadays. We were taught it as a kind of history and we knew what the main characters and the lesser characters did and were taught that the new testament kind of had more weight than the old. Other Protestant faiths study the Bible in a different way memorizing verses and literally applying them.

I was a Catholic convert at age 18 and really was surprised to find back then that the Catholic Church didn't study the Bible, as much as many Protestants I knew did, and Catholics are not taught to interpret the bible literally which agreed what I was taught as a child in Sunday School and in Catechism Class.

I get more Jeopardy questions on the Bible right than my "cradle Catholic" husband. But I am far from a scholar. To me it takes the wisdom of Solomon to figure it out.

Hoping that people would keep their views about religion to themselves is a tacit way of saying religion should not be spoken of in this forum. Why? People all over this board express their views on all sorts of things. Why imply that people should not speak of religion? I myself believe it's symptomatic of something akin to feeling edgy or maybe even guilty when the topic comes up. That's my belief, and maybe it's not anyone else's and that's okay on this forum.

I look at TOTV like a refrigerator. Open the door, take what you want and leave all the rest. If one sees a thread involving the Bible avoid it if it causes uneasiness to you.

God, to a believer, is not "matter." Chickens are, roosters are, eggs are, and the universe is. God is, was always and before time and worlds and always will be, um, forgive me, Supernatural.

I love the way Jews celebrate the Bible. Each synagogue has a scroll with the Torah..first 5 books..that is taken from its elaborate cabinet and paraded around the room on certain days, where congregants reverently touch it with their book, or kiss a scarf and touch the Torah with it.

The Torah has only one Deuteronomy... ;-)

[quote=graciegirl;943673]Lots of Spanish missions in California, the southwest and Mexico. Also, our Jehovah witnesses ride bikes and wear wear white shirts. They don't do that where you are from?

I believe one can be a good person without believing in God, Allah, Jesus , Mohammed, etc.

AMEN! <----- sorry, couldn't resist! :duck: