Originally Posted by Freeda (Post 358016)

Casey will most definitely have to testify; both as to the drowning and as to the sexual abuse. Unless there are witnesses who saw these things happen, who will testify to their having occurred, which I highly doubt, there is no other way she can prove these two things. Having claimed these two facts in his opening, there will have to be evidence of them; and Casey will presumably be the only person (since George denied them both) who will have knowledge of them.

Here are some other thoughts I have; and I seem to have many about this case, which I think is very interesting, in large part because it is so tragic. I've seen only excerpted testimony because we are traveling, but this is my take so far. George testified that he smelled the unmistakeable smell of a corpse in the trunk of Casey's car when he went to the tow lot to pick up the car, and that at the time he feared that it could mean that either Casey or Caylee were in the trunk (since both of them, he claims, were, in his mind, 'missing' at that time). Then, he and the tow lot manager (who also testified as to having smelled the odor of a human corpse in the trunk), opened the trunk, and only a bag of trash was in there; nevertheless, the human corpse smell was, he says, was present and unmistakeable.

Still, since George believed (as an experienced police detective who, he testified, had smelled that odor before) that the smell in the trunk was that of a human corpse, why, if he had no culpability, as he claims, in the coverup of Caylee's death, and if he were truly concerned about the smell possibly being related to his (he claims) then-'missing' daughter and granddaughter, wouldn't he want to have the police inspect the trunk and document the presence of the smell BEFORE taking the car to his home from the tow lot?

In other words, (1) not only is it odd that he wasn't shocked enough by the smell of what he himself believed was from a human corpse having been in the trunk (at a time when his daughter and granddaughter were both supposedly 'missing') to have immediately called the police to investigate it; but also (2) by taking the car to his home, he left open the possibility that it could later be claimed that the smell of a human corpse in the trunk had occurred from a body being placed in the car AFTER he had retaken possession of the car - and, thus, potentially somehow implicating himself (in other words, I wouldn't want to risk even a slight possibility of having to explain how the smell of a human corpse got into a car that is in my possession - would you?)

This suggests to me that George took the car home with the intention of trying to somehow get rid of the smell because he realized it was from Caylee's body having been in the trunk, and he didn't want that to be detected - (and that can only mean that he was involved in, and, in denying it, lied about, a coverup -which further means nothing else that he testified to can be believed; and as mentioned in a post above, I too find much of George's demeanor not credible). However, Cindy detected the odor and called 911 and reported the smell coming from the trunk before he could do that. I think that at that point, George knew his number was up, and that he then was forced to reinvent his conduct to place the blame for what had been made (though falsely; by his and Casey's conduct) to look like a murder solely on Casey in order to hide his own involvement. I think that it was he, also, who did the computer searches (what I don't know is whether it was possible for the police to determine when the computer searches were done - and, if so, what dates they were found to have been done - the evidence on this will be very interesting), during this time frame, to frame Casey with this evidence, to make it appear that she had researched methods of causing death; again, in a desperate attempt to avoid any fingers being pointed to him, since he realized that the coverup was unraveling, and that the police investigation which he knew would ensue would likely conclude that Caylee had been murdered by someone - since that is what he and Casey had, through their conduct, including, among many other things (such as having applied the duct tape to the remains), Casey's having for some period of time, kept Caylee's remains in Casey's car trunk, made it appear had occurred (even though, ironically, the death had, in fact, actually been an accidental drowning).

All of Casey's numerous lies to her friends and mother could be evidence of covering up her having murdered Caylee, as the prosecution claims, but are equally totally consistent with Casey's defense that they (Casey and her father) were (though poorly conceived, and extremely ineptly and stupidly carried out) trying to cover up fact that Caylee had drowned (in order to, crazy as it may sound, avoid blame and prosecution of Casey for criminal neglect, which Casey will say her father had convinced her would occur) by building a scenario of Caylee being with a (now known to be nonexistent) nanny who (they hoped) would eventually be believed to have abducted (and perhaps murdered) Caylee.

Preposterous? Maybe; but some of George's conduct just doesn't fly, as questioned above; and it just may cause the needed reasonable doubt in at least one juror. These are just some thoughts based on the trial to date; it all remains to be seen.

Some comments I have heard in the media, etc., have referred to the drowning and sexual abuse theories having been 'thought up' by Attorney Baez. However, the facts that an attorney advances in a case must come from the client. The attorney, just as he cannot testify, also cannot concoct fictional favorable factual scenarios and then school the client to testify thereto; I do not believe that any attorney would risk losing their bar license, plus prosecution, by doing this. It is his job to help his client prove what she claims occurred that can provide a defense to the charges against her.

Originally Posted by CaliforniaGirl (Post 357197)

What's preposterous to me is to believe that a former law enforcement officer (George Anthony) would try to turn a tragic accident into a kidnapping/murder to redirect blame. He would have to know that all family members would be investigated and probably would not have been stupid enough to use duct tape and other evidence from his own home. But even if that happened, common sense says that they would have reported Caylee missing right away and would have put forth a very public effort in trying to find her...IMHO, that 31-day period of absolutely no effort being made to locate her completely negates Baez's tall tale.

Originally Posted by CaliforniaGirl (Post 357119)

I disagree. All the searches for chloroform, how to make chloroform, household "weapons", etc. discovered on Casey's computer certainly sounds like premeditation to me. Also, placing duct tape over the child's mouth could have been just a really stupid thing to do (resulting in the child perhaps aspirating her own vomit, an accidental death), but duct tape over both mouth and nose would be premeditated murder.

What I don't understand is how any rational person could believe Baez's convoluted yarn. Why would anyone put duct tape over the nose and mouth of a dead (drowned) child?

Originally Posted by islandgal (Post 358093)

I have never (and hopefully never will) seen eyes so full of hate as Casey's eyes were when her mother was testifying about trying to locate Casey and the child.

They were intense and frightening. You could see hate firing out of them!

Originally Posted by Freeda (Post 358016)

Casey will most definitely have to testify; both as to the drowning and as to the sexual abuse. Unless there are witnesses who saw these things happen, who will testify to their having occurred, which I highly doubt, there is no other way she can prove these two things. Having claimed these two facts in his opening, there will have to be evidence of them; and Casey will presumably be the only person (since George denied them both) who will have knowledge of them.

Here are some other thoughts I have; and I seem to have many about this case, which I think is very interesting, in large part because it is so tragic. I've seen only excerpted testimony because we are traveling, but this is my take so far.

George testified that he smelled the unmistakeable smell of a corpse in the trunk of Casey's car when he went to the tow lot to pick up the car, and that at the time he feared that it could mean that either Casey or Caylee were in the trunk (since both of them, he claims, were, in his mind, 'missing' at that time). Then, he and the tow lot manager (who also testified as to having smelled the odor of a human corpse in the trunk), opened the trunk, and only a bag of trash was in there; nevertheless, the human corpse smell was, he says, was present and unmistakeable.

Still, since George believed (as an experienced police detective who, he testified, had smelled that odor before) that the smell in the trunk was that of a human corpse, why, if he had no culpability, as he claims, in the coverup of Caylee's death, and if he were truly concerned about the smell possibly being related to his (he claims) then-'missing' daughter and granddaughter, wouldn't he want to have the police inspect the trunk and document the presence of the smell BEFORE taking the car to his home from the tow lot?

In other words, (1) not only is it odd that he wasn't shocked enough by the smell of what he himself believed was from a human corpse having been in the trunk (at a time when his daughter and granddaughter were both supposedly 'missing') to have immediately called the police to investigate it; but also (2) by taking the car to his home, he left open the possibility that it could later be claimed that the smell of a human corpse in the trunk had occurred from a body being placed in the car AFTER he had retaken possession of the car - and, thus, potentially somehow implicating himself (in other words, I wouldn't want to risk even a slight possibility of having to explain how the smell of a human corpse got into a car that is in my possession - would you?)

This suggests to me that George took the car home with the intention of trying to somehow get rid of the smell because he realized it was from Caylee's body having been in the trunk, and he didn't want that to be detected - (and that can only mean that he was involved in, and, in denying it, lied about, a coverup -which further means nothing else that he testified to can be believed; and as mentioned in a post above, I too find much of George's demeanor not credible). However, Cindy detected the odor and called 911 and reported the smell coming from the trunk before he could do that. I think that at that point, George knew his number was up, and that he then was forced to reinvent his conduct to place the blame for what had been made (though falsely; by his and Casey's conduct) to look like a murder solely on Casey in order to hide his own involvement. I think that it was he, also, who did the computer searches (what I don't know is whether it was possible for the police to determine when the computer searches were done - and, if so, what dates they were found to have been done - the evidence on this will be very interesting), during this time frame, to frame Casey with this evidence, to make it appear that she had researched methods of causing death; again, in a desperate attempt to avoid any fingers being pointed to him, since he realized that the coverup was unraveling, and that the police investigation which he knew would ensue would likely conclude that Caylee had been murdered by someone - since that is what he and Casey had, through their conduct, including, among many other things (such as having applied the duct tape to the remains), Casey's having for some period of time, kept Caylee's remains in Casey's car trunk, made it appear had occurred (even though, ironically, the death had, in fact, actually been an accidental drowning).

All of Casey's numerous lies to her friends and mother could be evidence of covering up her having murdered Caylee, as the prosecution claims, but are equally totally consistent with Casey's defense that they (Casey and her father) were (though poorly conceived, and extremely ineptly and stupidly carried out) trying to cover up fact that Caylee had drowned (in order to, crazy as it may sound, avoid blame and prosecution of Casey for criminal neglect, which Casey will say her father had convinced her would occur) by building a scenario of Caylee being with a (now known to be nonexistent) nanny who (they hoped) would eventually be believed to have abducted (and perhaps murdered) Caylee.

Preposterous? Maybe; but some of George's conduct just doesn't fly, as questioned above; and it just may cause the needed reasonable doubt in at least one juror. These are just some thoughts based on the trial to date; it all remains to be seen.

Some comments I have heard in the media, etc., have referred to the drowning and sexual abuse theories having been 'thought up' by Attorney Baez. However, the facts that an attorney advances in a case must come from the client. The attorney, just as he cannot testify, also cannot concoct fictional favorable factual scenarios and then school the client to testify thereto; I do not believe that any attorney would risk losing their bar license, plus prosecution, by doing this. It is his job to help his client prove what she claims occurred that can provide a defense to the charges against her.

Originally Posted by dillywho (Post 358185)

Freeda, looks like you and I have many of the same thoughts.

One of the biggest questions I have is concerning the defense's request for a mistrial based on the prosecution's attempt to show lack of remorse. Judge Perry denied the motion and said that they were right if that is what the prosecution was doing, but that they were just trying to show her lack of conscience. Many of the media talking about the trial have pointed out in some of their statements that the prosecution is trying to show the jury her lack of remorse and have said nothing about conscience.

Questions: If seasoned reporters (some of which are/have been lawyers themselves) are interpreting the prosecution's line of questioning as showing remorse, how is a jury made up of lay people not going to think the same thing? Will the judge explain to them the difference and tell them that they cannot consider any of the testimony in this phase of the trial as lack of remorse? If not, will they know the difference? The jury was not present for his explanation when he denied the motion.

I have watched this every day so far and there are so many inconsistencies (for lack of a better word), it is unreal....such as:

George testified on the first day he was on the stand that on the 16th of June, supposedly the last day he saw Caylee, he asked Caylee where she was going and she said, "Zanny's".

Question: If Zanny is a figment of Casey's imagination, where did that come from?

Question: Why has no one asked any of those testifying if they had ever heard Caylee talk about Zanny? My kids talked constantly about their sitter.

Question: If George was familiar with the smell and police procedures, why didn't he call the police?

He testified that he drove the car home and then went to work.

Everytime Baez asked him if the smell was stronger when he opened the trunk than it was when he first opened the driver's door, he kept saying that all he saw in the trunk was a bag of garbage. About the 4th time, Baez told him that he didn't ask what he saw but that he had asked if the smell was stronger. George finally said, "No", chewing Baez's out at the same time for continuing to ask him, and once again added that he had already told him four times that all he saw was a bag of garbage.

Question: How could Cindy recall first and last names so well of supposed friends of Casey's after being told only one time who they were but couldn't recall some exact events? Many of these names were in her testimony about the supposed trip to Tampa and Zanny's car wreck. Many of us have problems relating names (especially first and last of people we have personally met, sometimes on numerous occasions). Much too detailed to be very credible.

Cindy seems to call all the shots in the family and Casey is about the only one that would ever cross her. The man at the tow lot testified as to how much George kept apologizing to him for Cindy's beratings.

Question: Why didn't George just tell her to back off?

George was asked about when he was told Casey was pregnant. They asked him about who the father was. His reply was, "I don't know...I didn't ask." Whaat? Most fathers I know would not simply ask, they would demand to know. My guess is (and it is just a guess) that Cindy was in control there, too.

I don't buy their story of drowning and a cover up as presented, yet. I have thought all along that she probably drowned or accidentally died some other way...not premeditated murder, at least not from what I've heard so far. As for the "secret", Lee alluded to family secrets at Caylee's eulogy that he delivered, which apparently didn't raise any flags then.

One big mystery to me is how she has been sitting in jail all this time and not broken. When she reacts (and it's been this way all along), she faking it or guilty. When she has had no reaction, she's hard or cold or totally uncaring.

It was kinda funny when the prosecution was trying to get some AOL IM's in to show motive, the judge said that if motive was what they were after it looked to him like she should have been planning to kill her parents. It quickly told them to forget that he'd said that. It was apparently his attempt a leveity. (He didn't allow the transcripts.)

There's been so much talk about Baez's inexperience, but why have so many "seasoned" lawyers not had him plead her out to a lesser charge and moved on? That tells me that there is lots more to this story. They surely haven't stuck around for the money...especially with her defense now on state money.

These are only a small sampling of my questions/observations. Reminds me of a big ball of tangled string. It is so hard to understand how one family can seemingly be so dysfunctional.

At this point, there are far more questions than answers. There is still lots more to come. Unfortunately, the absolute truth will probably never be known.

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 358653)

Caylee' s remains are found a block away in a plastic bag and having tape over her mouth would indicate that she was the victim of foul play.

Caylee was not seen or heard from for over 31 days and this really good Mom is party Pamela and doesn't seem concern that her daughter is absent. With a Mom like that kids don't need to be afraid of strangers.

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 358571)

I don't believe Baez explanation as to why it took 31 days to callpoice. George A an experienced cop he would not have made things worse by hiding an accidntal drownng. It is not known how and when Caylee died and it may never be known. If Casey does have the answers she must be a sociopath because I can imagine anyone putting their parents through what George and cindy anthony have faced these three years.

So for those who don't believe Baez drowning story how do you explain a mother who does nothing for 31 days.

I also noted another contradiction concerning this drowning story, If Casey knew her daughter drowned June 16th then why in her staements following her onfrontation by both her mother nad the police did she claim she had been seaching for her daughter through other sources? Why didn't she just say to her Mom or the police talk to my father he will tell you what happened?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Originally Posted by jblum315 (Post 358811)

Gracie, I love your signature. But in this case, it was too late for poor little Kaylee.

Originally Posted by CMANN (Post 358745)

Caylee's remains, tape over her mouth have not been entered into evidence yet. She may be as guilty as sin but as I said I have not seen the evidence yet.

Something is rotten here. I think we're in for a few surprises.

C

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 359132)

You know of course, Susan Smith, loved her children also, but she wanted a relationship more than her children, they seemed to be in the way....There seems to be some corrilation to C. Anthony case....

Originally Posted by dillywho (Post 359265)

Unlike Susan Smith, even after 3 years, they have never been able to break her. Why? How has she managed to keep her mouth shut, lawyer or no lawyer. Most people, when pushed or angered enough, will finally blurt out what they did or something. Not her.

How can they apply the death penalty if they cannot conclusively determine the cause of death? The ME stated in her press conference that she could not determine the cause of death. That being the case, when was the duct tape wrapped around the head -- before or after death? Couldn't the defense claim that it was all part of the "cover-up story" in case the body was found when Casey was claiming a kidnapping (her original story before it started to unravel) so it could be blamed on the "kidnapper"?

Like Freeda says, there is still room for doubt. Some of the analysts pointed out that in one of the jail tapes played in court today, George and Casey both talked about Caylee in the past tense. Does it mean anything? They kinda gave it a maybe yes, maybe no. I noticed also, that at one time on the tape before they knew why Casey left the conversation abruptly, Cindy told George to "get over here and sit down". He was apparently trying to find out where she went and why. (Casey had to be led out anytime another inmate was brought into the area where Casey was on the jail phone and was then brought back when they were gone.) I still think Cindy was/is very controlling.

What a mess!:loco:

Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 359282)

You are right, WHAT A MESS and so incomprehensible to most of us. It seems that Casey's pathology, her obvious inability to be normal and not lie, her probable sociopathy would have been a better defense, but unfortunately conditions like that are hard to prove, and to the lay person appear as severe character flaws. I have no compassion for Casey, nor any understanding either. I am baffled. It must be awful to BE her.

Originally Posted by Freeda (Post 359119)

... for negligent homicide, which Casey will apparently say that her father told her could happen - and, remember, he was a police detective, so she would likely have believed his opinion, if he had advised this)

If George did sexually abuse Casey, that would make him, to me, sociopathic and capable of other wrong things.

Originally Posted by Barefoot (Post 359296)

The one thing that we know for certain is that Casey is a habitual liar. The level of detail she fabricates in her stories is incredible and makes them seem so real. She even seems to believe her own lies. I don't think that any of her stories, including the sexual abuse and drowning, can be believed. And I don't think the jury will believe anything she says if she takes the stand in her own defence. She tells whatever lie she thinks will "save her skin" at the time.

Did you see all the people racing through the halls of the courthouse this morning to get a seat? I just found a channel on Canadian TV that has the court case live all day. I wish I didn't find this case so fascinating. It is similar to the OJ Trial ... it's difficult to not watch it!

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 356892)

Yipsters, looks like the state has a case that will be hard to dispute.....Can't wait until Baez "drops a bombshell"??????