This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

Some of this ("I'm a good person")....and some of that ("I did more for the needy than most people")....or some of this ("All the good muslims and hindi and christians are all going to the same place anyway, just by different ways")....

....will not purify nor bring our souls to eternal life in God's holy presence. Only repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer-Savior will prepare our souls for eternal life and perfection in God's presence.

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him,
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14 (NASB)
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24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5 (NASB)
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39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him,
“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


John 14 NASB - Jesus Comforts His Disciples -
John 5 NASB - The Healing at Bethesda - After these - Bible Gateway
Luke 23 NASB - Jesus before Pilate - Then the whole - Bible Gateway

Christ wasn't inclusionary. So what do you think of Christ?

It's not about religions. I've been everything. Started out Catholic, then was an Episcopalian, then JW, Mormon, 7th Day Adventist and today go to a Southern Baptist church. IT"S NOT ABOUT RELIGION.

It's about truth. What is the truth? It's not found in man made religions...but in the person of Christ. Yes, he was exclusive. He said there was NO OTHER way into heaven but by him. He also said he did not come here to build a kingdom. Look around....isn't that what many are doing today? Building big kingdoms in the name of Christ?

He came here to show the way and everything he did was eye witness worthy. He himself said not to believe anything without 2 or 3 witnesses. What you are speaking about is universalism. You actually believe it doesn't matter we just all get to go to heaven?

What I see really...is that everyone wants the Kingdom, but doesn't want the King. Big problem.

I agree that Jesus did exist, but have serious doubt about the Virgin Mary and God being the father of Jesus. I am more comfortable with Jesus being a wonderful profit. Born a male child to an unwed mother. He had the ability and desire to study the writings of those preceding him and the converting them into a kind more modern interpretation that worked better than the OT scriptures. I put him on a parallel with Mohamed. I also feel that both Muslims and Christians will find the afterlife. To clarify, I personally think this heaven thing is all smoke and mirrors but I also believe if you follow any of the major religions, you will find peace and comfort in this world.

Actually they do have mixed groups, Golfingnut, but not sure if there is one in your area. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see the way both women and men are viewed and respected in this particular organization. Whatever you decide, best wishes to you, Golfingnut.

Thanks for the info! Is this study for both men and women? If (no, when) we ever get moved down there, I would love to be able to go to a study with my husband.

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.


Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.


Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

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I have a suggestion to those that are seeking the truth of God's divine plan for ALL mankind, "ask Him"! Read Matthew 7:7-9; Luke 12:31; Hebrews 11:6 "And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."

No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

Yes, both men and women and many couples go. It's well worth it. It's every Tuesday at 10 but most get there after 9:15 or so for coffee and cookies beforehand. Gets over about 11:15.

People are saved by their individual, personal faith in Christ, not by doing the practices/ordinances nor the doctrines/dogmas of denominations, nondenominationals, nor by the faith of their families.

The Word of God is read and proclaimed in most Christian churches, and it accomplishes what God sends it to do with those who surrender to God's authority....and believe Him....regardless of other "stuff" that is preached/required.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
--Romans 10:17

Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?


Response by Dawn Marie: No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

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I wouldn't presume to "improve" on Dawn Marie's response, but I would like to add my perspective.

1. Southern Baptists do not believe that you must be baptized to be saved.

2. Each Southern Baptist church is an independent, autonomous entity, operating at various levels of "congregational" self-government. They may or may not belong to a local, regional association and/or the Southern Baptist Convention. However, membership in these organizations does not give either the power to dictate how their church is governed.

3. In that light, each church may set its own standards for membership. A profession of trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment to God for their sins is mandatory. If they have previously been baptized in a church of "like faith and manner" they may become a member of the church without being baptized again. If their baptism was otherwise, such as infant baptism, they must be baptized in order to become a member of the local congregation. Baptism is seen simply as a public expression of their faith.

This may be a poor analogy, but think of it as similar to the initiation rites of a fraternity.

4. The baptism requirement does not, as you assume, imply that prior baptisms were "invalid" because Southern Baptists do not believe that baptism confers salvation. Prior baptisms were simply initiations into other denominations. Southern Baptists accept the salvation, with a notable exception, of virtually all Christian faiths where trust in Jesus is the central tenet.

5. What is the exception? you wonder. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a view of the personhood of Jesus which is contrary to scripture. Without going too much into detail I'll just say that Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

6. And, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. They deny that Jesus is divine. They believe Jesus was "God's first creation" which means he is not God.

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In my 30s a few of my best friends were Jehovah's Witnesses and I have many cousins in Tampa who are active in that faith to this day. They are highly principled and nice people.

Some of my closest friends in the Secret Service are Mormons. They are kind, ethical people. When I was on the advance team for President Nixon's visit to the Mormon Tabernacle I worked with security personnel there and instantly developed several friendships.

However, sadly, I think their theology is mistaken.

It does not make me happy, but I am not in control.

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