Talk of The Villages Florida - The decline of Christianity

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovetv (Post 810821)

People are saved by their individual, personal faith in Christ, not by doing the practices/ordinances nor the doctrines/dogmas of denominations, nondenominationals, nor by the faith of their families.

The Word of God is read and proclaimed in most Christian churches, and it accomplishes what God sends it to do with those who surrender to God's authority....and believe Him....regardless of other "stuff" that is preached/required.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
--Romans 10:17

:agree:

I agree. All this other stuff I've been posting is just commentary on history.

Denominations meet various individual needs, but personal faith in Christ is central to Christianity.

.

Thanks Carl..you are so thorough and analytical. You are, of course, quite correct in all your points except for one....you "think" their theology is mistaken?

I had an interesting encounter with a JW on a plane. We didn't really begin speaking until nearly the flight end but then it got quite animated and rapid going from one subject matter to another after we answered her with Scripture. After a layover, my husband and I boarded the next plane and lo and behold here comes this same lady on, now another plane, and sat in the same exact seat as the prior plane. All three of us together as before in the same exact seating arrangement. Never happened before nor since and I've been on many trips. We were all in shock but were able to continue the conversation immediately after already making introductions 2 hrs earlier. Turns out she was on her way to a JW convention in Maine.

Time literally flew by as we hit one issue after another. A few days later, 2 JW's (men) came knocking at our host's home. In 20 years of living there they had never had this happen. The two men had more than they could bargain with. We had already been thru every single issue they brought up after our chance meeting on the plane. One of them said that in all his 25 years of knocking on doors he had never met anyone that knew the bible as much as they did (or better). He kept saying "we're done here" and "we need to leave." After about an hour or so they practically ran out the door. They could not get out fast enough.

How's that for divine intervention? :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810842)

Thanks Carl..you are so thorough and analytical. You are, of course, quite correct in all your points except for one....you "think" their theology is mistaken?

I "think" was just a figure of speech.

Like saying "I think I'll have lunch now," when I know I'm going to have lunch now.

OR

"I think Shakespeare was a great playwright," when I know that Shakespeare was a great playwright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 810852)

:coolsmiley:

LOL..you know I was just pulling your leg right? I was kind of thinking of 1 John 5:13 about "knowing."

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810724)

This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

That's ALL Josephus wrote about Jesus...and did you know he wasn't alive when Jesus was? He was born in 37CE. And I bet you also don't know he didn't write that until late in his life? He wrote his "history" from memory. Did you know he was a Roman enemy and surrendered? Besides religious writings...that's all there is. Jesus just isn't mentioned outside Christianity...by anyone.

I'll also tell you...the George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc. you read about in the history books...are NOT the real people. History is embellished.

No, the NT was NOT written by the disciples...all unaffiliated scholars agree most of the books of the NT are anonymous, not written by those whoms names they carry.

You need to expand the source for your studies. I believe you're suffering from confirmation bias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810751)

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

That's just it...according to the stories, very few Jews believed Jesus WAS the Messiah. Most said he didn't fulfill all the requirements. Actually nobody did until Paul comes around (Paul NEVER met Jesus) and begins to feverishly promote Jesus and Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 810758)

Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

.

No, his Apostles did not write those books of the NT.

XVIII 3.2 is the ONLY mention of Jesus by Josephus. And as I said earlier...it was hearsay, read it again, it's hearsay...he HEARS about a man named Jesus. He wasn't born when Jesus was alive. And he's ALL you've got outside Christian writers who mention Jesus.

Tacitus wrote almost 100 years later...you call that PROOF? Really?

Muhammad started Islam in 610CE...that's almost 600 years after the fact...this is more "proof"?

That's the problem there isn't ANYTHING written by ANYONE during the time of Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 810776)

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.

Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.

Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

.

What does this have to do with my question? Jesus wasn't Caesar, if Caesar was killed, we'd know about it.

So Carl, what REALLY happened on that day in Dallas? lone gunman? A lone gunman who was conveniently killed at the police station? Why is everything still sealed? And no, all the sealed evidence hasn't been released, why? Because it was sealed. It's probably been destroyed...it's been 50 years already...I'm sure we'll get an "opps, we can't find it" the day of the unsealing. Like Giraldo and Al Capone's vault.

Well I'm certainly not going to argue or debate with you Don. You've got your mind made up. Not much I'm going to do about that.

One thing I do know...is truth always prevails. It's like cream. It will always come to the top eventually. keep searching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810899)

Alas, Don dismisses all scholarship and evidence that does not conform to his prejudices.

He chooses to ignore all writings by the church fathers who were of the generation following the Apostles and who received their instruction from the Apostles, who were eyewitnesses to the acts, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus. These include Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna.

Don is more intent on winning an argument than on seeking truth.

He also made a remark comparing the authenticity of Apostolic writings to someone today writing about someone from the 60s. When I point out how many people have recently written about Jack Kennedy he attempts to obfuscate by getting into conspiracy theories about the assassination. The assassination is irrelevant to the fact that many people who knew Kennedy well have written histories about his life, just as people who knew Jesus have written about Jesus.

"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.�

Luke 9:5

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810899)

Dawn and Carl a really good effort but at this point it's pointless.....and more about just trying to prove you are wrong. Without faith in God and his son Jesus Christ, one cannot believe.

The sin of unbelief is what separates us from God and denying the Holy Ghost is the only unforgivable sin.

Certainly nothing new about people not believing for they also didn't believe Jesus when he walked here upon the earth and performed many miracles that they actually witnessed.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Please keep your comments directed at the topic and not each other.

I love debate. It is so informative, on a variety of levels. Keep it going, politely please.

And Proverbs 18:2 tell us that, "Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions".......

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 810899)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 810911)

No, I've dismissed "scholorship" done by those with "skin in the game". I've looked to those outside the religion for other answers. More honest answers.

Can you deny anything I've said? DID Josephus write more than that one little paragraph "about Jesus"? No. Are there any other writings by people OUTSIDE Christianity about Jesus? No. If you have something FROM THAT TIME, show me. Most scholors say the people named as the writers of the books...Mark, John, Mathew, etc. were NOT the ones who actually wrote them. Though your "Christian bible scholor" won't admit it.

Show me the Roman records of the trial of Jesus. Show me the record of his crucifiction. Show me anything written about him by someone other than a follower.

You keep bringing up Kennedy...why? Kennedy was the president, of course people wrote about him. Why didn't all kinds of people write about Jesus if he was so important at the time?

I have QUESTIONS not answers. I'm just stating what isn't true about what you are saying. You people have all the answers, you peoplea are SURE about what you believe. My question is why? There's nothing to bac it up except things written WELL after the fact by people with an interest in promoting what THEY say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker (Post 810947)

I love debate. It is so informative, on a variety of levels. Keep it going, politely please.

I'm trying...I'm trying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tucson (Post 810949)

And Proverbs 18:2 tell us that, "Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions".......

Actually, "fools" have no opinion of their own and rely on others to tell them what to think...

Quote:

Originally Posted by donb9006 (Post 811077)

Whom has their "mind made up"? I'm just telling you what "I" have found in my studies. I wondered for years..."what am I missing? Why does everyone else believe?" I've found through MY study that I'm missing nothing. Truth always rises to the top? Really? Where? The world is full of lies. Institutional lies go on forever...

No, I've dismissed "scholorship" done by those with "skin in the game". I've looked to those outside the religion for other answers. More honest answers.

Most scholors say the people named as the writers of the books...Mark, John, Mathew, etc. were NOT the ones who actually wrote them. Though your "Christian bible scholor" won't admit it.

I have QUESTIONS not answers. I'm just stating what isn't true about what you are saying. You people have all the answers, you peoplea are SURE about what you believe. My question is why? There's nothing to bac it up except things written WELL after the fact by people with an interest in promoting what THEY say.

I'm trying...I'm trying.

Actually, "fools" have no opinion of their own and rely on others to tell them what to think...

I see what your problem is. You are going to people outside of the religion who will answer what you wish to hear. You're saying yourself they are "more honest?" Based on what criteria?

If you're going to go to Africa and have never been there before, do you get your information from people who have never left their home town, or do you seek those who have traveled abroad and more importantly been to Africa?

You're getting bad information. Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Mark wrote the book of Mark most likely with Peter's help. Luke wrote Luke and John wrote John...and most scholars DO believe that.

John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation. The letters written by Paul were sent to churches and addressed to them as letters.

Have you even read this book? I mean, really read it?

The best person to go to for answers is the one whom you are avoiding. God said himself in His Book that those who truly seek me will find me. We did that. That's why we are so convinced that He is real and His book is much more than a book written with the hand of man.

Why do we believe so heartily?? I can answer for myself... when I sought God with all my heart, mind and soul, I found Him in a tremendously powerful and on such a intimate and personal way that was life-changing 33 yrs ago. It saved me from probably years of sitting in front of a psychiatrist and alot of pain. He found me looking for Him...I love Him and it has made me a better person for it. I pray for those searching for His truth and unconditional love to find the same...:-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tucson (Post 811144)

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.