:agree:

I'm the OP. Fascinating how the ToTV folks here took part in a lively discussion - with few antagonistic offshoots to politics or flogging others. A few more of my thoughts after post #1.

1. I am completely sick re these latest events. Personally enough is enough and SOMETHING substantial (whatever can help) MUST be done. These events simply should not continue on in this country. They will NEVER be eradicated, but that should not stop sane caring people to come together and put forth changes.

2. The horses ARE out of the barn, but this continual supply of easily available heavy armament and ammo can be making matters worse. Gun control will never be passed but some type of civil enforcement should be attained. Not a gun owner, but I have always said that if we lived in Orlando or such, I would be... RE gun control - remember the 'bump stock' from Vegas shooter... what happened in DC on that? zip.

3. Imagine if gun control was tightened and limited. A crazed person could simply run a truck down the sidewalk near a school and wipe out 20 kids as well. Or a box cutter at school - carnage too. Crazed will tend to adjust the weapons of choice.

4. Mental issues - a tough nut to crack. What level is enough to hold and question or put away. Is a voiced threat enough? Something must be done to ID the potential crazed, but laws get in the way.

5. Say something... yep. Need a very effective process by law agencies to address this. Admin and funding will be roadblocks.

6. Armed guards at schools, ID cards etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, or even close - but we must have impediments in place.

7. Social media and extreme gaming. The way our society is going this will be a tough nut to crack. No easy answers.

Since 2001 we have done a pretty OK job airport security-wise in the US - but we have been mighty lucky as well. We need international experts (like from Israel) to assess and assist. Anything we do in the country to bolster school security etc will cost bundles of $$$. With all our other budget issues, will our determination stick?

But I do like hearing that THIS school shooting may be the tipping point and pressures on our leaders/lawmakers will be strong.

Re: killers...if there is a will, there is a way - in spite of the safety measures we undertake.

True but we still have to try. It should definitely not be that easy.

I would like to think the school shooting in Parkland is the tipping point, but I don't know. If the 27 students and teachers murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 couldn't spur action, will this be able to?

As I told one of my coworkers who moved to the US a few years ago, it wasn't always this way in the schools in this country. When I was in elementary and high school in the 1960's-1970's, fearing that one of your classmates would shoot up the school was not even thought of.

Unfortunately, I think it's not a matter of if a similar situation at a school will occur again, but when and where, and that really saddens me.

The kids want to change things and seem determined to do so. Unfortunately, there will be more shootings but this will only make these children more determined to stop things as much as they can.

Many seem to want to help them too.

Does a Celebration of Life for a 14 year old make much sense??? That is what a pair of Villagers grandparents are attending or will within a week or so.

SOMETHING must be done. Some measures must be taken by our leaders. Pressure must be put on them to address key issues. Complacency and doing nothing will ensure continuance of these horrible events.

I am heartened that some of our youth has spoken and perhaps will create a groundswell of pressure. It seems to me that this age 15-30 population has the will and energy to organize and put extreme pressure on the folks in charge to actually make changes. They will be/are a large voting group as well - which is key. I personally am not one that condones walkouts, marches etc - BUT... whatever it takes. This issue will never be completely erased from our open free society, but doing NOTHING ensures it can and will continue.

Hope they don't just focus solely on guns - but ALL the elements that impact this scourge of violence. Here's a few paragraphs from an interesting article>



"We are the students, we are the victims, we are change, fight gun violence now!" student organizers wrote for one of the planned events. "High School students across the U.S.A, the way to fight back is here. There has been too much complacency on the part of politicians when it comes to gun violence. The time to act is now!"

We will be the last mass shooting': Florida students want to be tipping point in gun debate


The first event is planned for March, 14, which would mark one month since the South Florida shooting. It's being planned in part by the Women's March organizers to protest inaction from lawmakers on gun-control legislation.

"We are not safe at school. We are not safe in our cities and towns," the Facebook event reads. "Congress must take meaningful action to keep us safe and pass federal gun reform legislation that address the public health crisis of gun violence."

The event calls for students and teachers to walk out of their schools at 10 a.m. local time for 17 minutes, to honor the 17 lives lost in Florida.

Another walkout is planned on April 20, which will mark the 19th year since the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado that left 13 dead.

There is an interesting article in the other site about a man who lives in the Villages and was a school administrator when a flight with 16 kids and their 5 adult chaperones went down. They were from his school.

As many know my high school English teacher's daughter, Michelle Mitchell, was murdered on my birthday (2-24) when I was a Junior at Earl Wooster High School in Reno, Nevada in 1976. I was a favorite of the teacher and that family gave me very small Memorial Scholarship in her name. I had been taking correspondence courses to skip my Senior year so I used that small scholarship at the University of Nevada, Reno for my Freshmen year. You never get over traumatic experiences especially ones that are repeated in the media for years. And the murder occurred on my birthday which also made and makes it very hard to just push aside.

I did get four degrees though and helped maybe 40 prisoners with their legal matters as a student then Student Co-Director at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners (LAMP) Minnesota Correctional Facility--Stillwater so this baggage did not slow me down all that much. It actually made me more determined to be objective about things and dig into matters as well as I could given the resources available. Law school trained me to be critical. And try to look at things from many perspectives. I was at the U of MN while in LAMP.

The community's need for closure did lead to the wrongful conviction of a paranoid schizophrenic woman, Cathy Woods, who had confessed falsely to the murder of Michelle Mitchell. She did at this at the time to get a better room in the mental institution she was in located in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. This was around 1979.

I had immersed myself in reading Philosophy and History as well as great literature during my stay at the University of Nevada, Reno while getting BAs in each of these.

I have been contacting through Facebook the last four years or so some of the former students from Wooster High School from around this time and some have prospered.

I hope that the students affected by the Valentine's Day shooting can use this terrible tragedy to make the changes needed. The solutions probably will be very complicated if they are to work but I hope that the wisdom you see in many Villagers can be applied.

As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.

:agree: Politics and money $$$$$$$$$

THANK YOU.

Glad someone agrees with me.

We live in a time where being mean spirited is considered a good thing, where being immoral and offensive is defended.

We attack, not listen and be empathetic and appreciative. We simply will not acknowledge bad behavior. This thread has shown that side far too many times. And reading the indictments against the Russians makes the point....they know how we are and play to it and we keep on allowing it.

This is our society now, and I see no movement other than it getting worse after the last 24 hours.

Kids learn from listening and watching and they will emulate.

These kids are now demonstrating but my guess it is falling on deaf ears. It does no serve our elected officials to be empathetic. It is a terrible terrible tragedy and as I was told clearly yesterday on here.....making our elected officials speak up in a public hearing will do not good.

There are so many sides to this story...the fall down by the FBI, the fall down by various Florida agencies, by the school officials but all we hear is the politics of it.

With the discussion on news yesterday, I did a quick survey of my own last night and this morning....on network doing montages of the victims....on network discussing the politics of gun control and one networks sounded like RT.

Our children deserve so much better....so very much better.

May God protect all our future leaders who today are children...may they shed the bad actions of those passing them selves as role models and find a role model that will lead them to good and positive things. I always prefer to see the good and those kids speaking on behalf of the others are potential leaders are GOOD. May they find a way to turn this tragedy into a good thing

Parkland is a rather well off place from what I gather that has people with a lot of connections. I still think this will be an important development with the kids, teachers and others getting involved with marches. And it looks like it is international thanks to Facebook, Tweeter and whatever the kids in 2018 are using to communicate with one another. They seem to find something new quite often.

The lobbyists are always a problem. But then something happens like with the tobacco lobby. Tobacco politics - Wikipedia They have had quiet victories though after various defeats.

Those who now have equal rights (like using bathrooms etc) or women who now can vote are two quick examples that show how this country has had marches and it successfully worked.

This is not a kingdom.

And if we find a way, or even just DISCUSS how to protect our precious voting, that might help, but those who can call it fake.

Exchanging views, and protesting with free speech USED TO BE SOMETHING REAL AMERICANS treasured.

How Marches in Washington Have Shaped America - The New York Times

These Parkland kids will try marches and if that does not work, something else.

Marches have played a very important role in US society.

We will see if there is any change from the efforts of the Parkland kids, their teachers and I assume the many celebrities and politicians who will get involved with this. The media will also play a very important role on how they cover these marches.

Marching is probably one of the most important rights of the average American.

Got it...you said it twice.

Do not express your views....do not march or express those views in public.

Voting is ok, but that is a bit tainted by a foreign government interfering in that process.

I think these kids, and grieving parents have a right to "express their views to other people" and certainly to march and utilize free speech

As I said before, I am NOT a proponent of marches or boycotts... BUT in this case... I DO agree that ANYTHING to get our 'Leaders" attention to act, hopefully in a righteous manner, will be a positive thing. I think that this will gather huge momentum among impressionable <20 youth and 20-30 age group, and spread to colleges as well. And kids will probably implore to their parents, and build onward. Bottom line - this could grow to a huge VOTING block in 2018 and 2020 and the DC, State, and Local folks will HAVE TO take notice and do something. Hopefully NOT simply ongoing investigations, committees, meetings, and delays.
We already know 3 important facts from this event>
1. The FBI requires a systemic improvement and closed-loop systems for "say something" escalated to them. They CANNOT allow 'slip-thru-the-cracks and errors.
2. Same as #1 for Schools, Local, and State agencies.
3. He bought the weapon LEGALLY even with suspect background/behaviors.

I do not see this one slipping away from the forefront as in the past. momentum will/should continue to ensure some proper action to close holes in the system. Again, noting will be 100%, but minimize the chances of copycats et al.

DO NOT PARAPHRASE WHAT I WROTE!

I do not believe that any post on this thread has changed anyone's mind or their views about anything. It may have reinforced views they had and made them more outraged about the short sightedness of others. I think marching makes the marcher feel better but it doesn't sway the non marcher.

The freedom of speech is important and sacred to all of us. The Pen is mightier than the sword. Part of grieving is anger. For many thinkers, who and what to be angry at is the issue. One person caused this horrible thing to happen and I know not one person who would have enabled him.

Good post

I have nothing against peaceful demonstrations but the way they have gone lately is sideways and end up with violence and destruction. There now has to be a large police presence at each. Some of the major contributors have started threatening to withdraw donations and if enough people contacted their legislators and expressed their views it would be far more effective. We somehow have to make it painful for our politicians to do nothing and worrisome that they will not get re-elected.

I hope expression of views of national or international issues are simply not aimed at TOTV for some reason other than the reason for the forum.

Marching has a tremendous effect, and always had through history. Ignoring them has an effect also.

Sorry if I misunderstood...I certainly did not paraphrase anything you said.

One thing I agree with is the vote. I hope SOON, we will "counterattack" the attack on our voting by Russians. Reading the indictments, which are simply a precursor to many more, was chilling. Voting is our way of showing our preferences.

But it is in deep jeopardy because, while 99% of this country (elected and non elected) agree we need to protect it, those who count don't think there was a problem. Thus, while younare correct, it is the way, nothing is being done at all, or even being discussed, to protect it.

The children should march, protest, scream and whatever. Someday...someone will assign responsibility and our leaders will openly be required to take a stand on guns, mental health, and things like protecting our country from foreign powers interfering with that voting you speak of. Now we have nothing but Twitter and daily doses.

This gun issue is not new, just ignored. Same goes for many others, including mental health. I was honored to play a role in the Mental Health/Mental Retardation movement in Pennsylvania which resulted in the act pass in 1966, and we still don't get it.

I will not believe our country is numb to all of this.

Let those children raise hell

Exactly, this is why I fear for the safety of these kids since there are so many mentally unstable individuals wanting to do harm and staging counter rallies is a fine way to do it. People get fueled by the crowd mentality and things get out of hand.

You make a valid point.

It takes guts to be "out there" for something you believe in.

I just want my country to wake up and admit we are and have been under attack and stop helping those who are successfully tearing us apart from afar.

We sometimes seem to use their own tactics on our own country.
Look, it's not just me...the world sees it. This country is on edge almost daily....one side says nothing is happening and attacks those who feel we are under attack and who want to defend us,
.

That has an effect on the people who live in this country.

But the issue are these children and I think they need to be heard.

I also add, and mostly criticized for, saying it needs to be PUBLIC hearings....we and they need to hear from people not reading from scripts and hopefully capture how they really feel.

If the NRA is this powerful, we need to bottle that power. I do not own a gun....I do not understand guns much, and "have no dog in the fight", but these kids and parents have a right to ask people questions and get answers.

If not, clock ticks until the next person sneaks under the State, FBI, etc net which is largely and thankfully successful in stopping these things , and away we will go with more of what I am beginning to think is intentional dragging of feet

I like a movement that has started after this shooting.

People are sending checks to the politicians which are made out with THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS instead of money.

Might I also add, that no one has the right...to not be ****ed off.

And your point about how peaceful marches have righted wrongs in this country a number of times...is dead on. :ho:

Oh I would like to shake her hand: Quote:

Amid endless calls for “thoughts and prayers” instead of legislative action in response to mass shootings, a woman in Michigan decided to take matters into her own hands.

After Wednesday's mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, Fern Malila mailed a letter and a check in the amount of "thoughts and prayers" to Representative Jack Bergman, a Michigan legislator.

“Dear Rep. Bergman,” she wrote, “since you and your colleagues in Congress seem to feel that this is the solution to mass murder, please accept this contribution.”

Maybe, just maybe, we could start a letter writing campaign along those lines!

Yes peaceful marches have changed things in the past but things are very different now. I am as ****ed off as anyone but I am also fearful of large gatherings.

Love it

Most of us use the term "thoughts and prayers" kindly, as an expression of understanding and an outreach of love and compassion. We have all used it at a time when there are no words to use that will alleviate the grief and pain another is suffering.

I am afraid that it isn't the thoughts that are now being held in disparagement, but the prayers.

And that is troubling and heartbreaking for many sincere and good people who are innocent of any wrong doing and have no intentions of harm.

No one is questioning this but I believe what this woman did was send a symbolic message that we will no longer support legislators who refuse to take action.

I totally disagree with you - of course! Who would be p****d off by sending such checks?

If this became a National movement I believe enough politicians in this country would sit up and take notice! There is real power in people when they band together to get something done - you only have to look back in history to the Freedom Marchers to see how much difference can be made. There is an anger in this country that I have never seen before.

The only thing better would be using the Voting Booth to make ones feelings known.

Yes and what she is doing is telling her legislators that she will not send them money or vote for them until they do their job. These politicians need to know that we are unhappy with them and their lack of action and that their chances of re-election are not good if they do not do something.

Some do not blame the legislators. Some think the shooter was to blame. Or the shooters mother. Or genetics that caused his illness. Or the FBI who didn't act on the tip.

I willsay it again. Minds are not changed by arguing and fighting. Things in this country are changed by voting. Or how we spend our money.

The blame is the shooter, nobody else....To even venture to, or to list as an option the FBI is just plain ludicrious and very political

Actually, Gracie, most of what you say here is tragically true.

But I would say “arguing” with some people will not change their minds. There are those who cannot bear to acknowledge reality because then they would have to deal with it so it is easier to allow themselves to be pawns. But I am seeing others who are waking up, looking around, and paying attention — and looking between the lines.

And — about that “how we spend our money” thing you said — right, right , right. But, you see, those young people who have witnessed unspeakable horror don’t have any money. Lobbyists have money. Lots and lots of money. And money talks.

But, for the first time, in nearly two decades of school shootings — the slaughter of innocents — I am hopeful because I have seen those thinking, articulate young people commit themselves to the future of our country. They might not have money, but they have power — and they cannot be bought.

And, yeah, this old high school teacher stands beside those kids.

WE ALL STAND BESIDE THOSE KIDS. THAT IS THE POINT. We each BELIEVE WE have the answer and think we are changing other people's minds. WE ARE NOT. We each have one vote. All we do is aggravate each other. None of us killed those children and none of us want any more dead from guns, knives, airplanes, bombs, poison in our water, thugs, thieves, or mentally sick people. I don't think teaching young children to hate in any form is good stuff.

:bigbow::bigbow:

Gracie, this movement is in response the Congressmen and Senators who take money from the NRA. Then when another one of these mass shooting all they say is "our thoughts and prayers". Its long past time for action in regard to the AR15.

Should we also take action in regard to the Mini-14?