My thoughts exactly. We paid Medicare tax while working. A part B per come out of our social security and we need supplemental insurance. Medicare is far from free.

I did not at any point say Americans are miserable and unhappy compared to the rest of the world.

There are shades of grey. Americans pay 2 to 3 times what people in other industrialized nations and get poorer outcomes for their money - does that make you happier than them? No, does it make you miserable - no. It means we can do better - you know that whole GREAT thing.

There are more than first and last place. There are more than thrilled and depressed. There are hundreds of countries where people are are sicker and less happy than we are.

Are you satisfied comparing yourself (our country) and the countries in last place? When I ran track in school I was never happy saying "I didn't come in last". I strived to be the best I could be, that that meant in or near first place.

I agree completely.

I somewhat disagree, I believe we must have a universal healthcare for EVERYONE. I do not believe basic vaccinations and basic healthcare should be optional, even at the individuals discretion. I do not want my next door neighbor bringing home the black plaque and killing me and my children.

I agree, obviously there are some positions that aero not possible or practical. But, one thing is certain, if we continue down the path we are on, there are no good things waiting for us.

We as a nation should be working towards a better life for our children.

Well and fairly debated. I listened and will remember and look closer. I always can count on you. We may not always agree but you are my furry friends mom.

I worked in healthcare my entire career both on the provider side and payer side. Also I taught part time in a Masters in Health Administration program for over twenty years. I am really open to both sides on this discussion.

Some observations:
1. There are two types of national healthcare. A system where the government provides the care (British system, VA system) and where the government provides insurance (Canadian system).

2. In both systems emergency care and primary, preventative care are quite good. In both systems non life threatening elective services are rationed (knee replacement, cataract surgery).

3. Physicians and healthcare providers make less. There is little to no marketing of hospital and physician services, thus no " mint on the pillow " add ons like gourmet menus and plush private rooms.

4. There are less innovations and break through discoveries. (How many new medical discoveries have come out of the Netherlands and France?)

To me it depends on what we want as a nation. Immediate availability and plush hospitals which are not necessary and expensive but what we Americans have come to expect? Or good quality but no frills healthcare like our VA system.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone with my true Christian remark. Its just in my opinion I see covering all medical needs for all people regardless of their financial status as a true spirit of Jesus Christ and his message too us all. I don’t know if the term Medicare for all is the way to say it or not, but when I hear, I worked for my coverage and it’s not a right, I tense up. Again, in my opinion, to even insinuate that a man with wealth should have better access to lifesaving medical attention than the poor or the old or children, that is not Christian.
I will listen if one wants to say Medicare for all, except those that are otherwise capable but refuse to contribute, fine. That is not the complaint I hear, it’s simply me with wealth and them. The them includes many that deserve our love and help. So, define the program as MEDICARE FOR ALL EXCEPT then perhaps we will have a better opportunity to be Christian

Plenty of cutting edge surgery and treatments originate in these countries, and in Europe in general, but probably not as much as some of the more wealthy institutions in the US.
However if it is denied to many/most US citizens because of its cost, what is its benefit, if but a few can afford it?

Your right, I should have clarified my comment. I so often hear that healthcare is like socialism if you don’t have the means to pay for it yourself. I put more into a category of the police, the fire department and paved roads. Not all of us pay enough taxes to pay for these things, but I separate these and health care into rights rather than socialism. We have far too many giveaways in this country and far too many programs that so many take advantage of, but health care must not be grouped in with the real socialist programs.

If we were to copy Europe, we would have a better health care system and provide healthcare to all - what you want to call it is becoming political, and healthcare should not be political. Healthcare is taking care of one another.
I have been to Europe many times and have not heard many complaints. They pay higher taxes, but it takes care of health AND retirement.

:bigbow:
I wish I had said it like you.
:bigbow:

But the point you left off is that despite paying MORE taxes, their bottom line is they pay LESS than the US for those same services and end up with more income not less.

And the reduction in stress by KNOWING that healthcare for them and their children regardless of any other circumstances (losing their job?) is guaranteed is something that is hard for Americans to understand. We always have that little thought in the back of our mind - can I afford to get sick, will the insurance company deny the treatment I need. For some those worries are more than for others, but even with the BEST insurance policies in the US, there is always the situation where the insurance company disagrees with the doctors treatment plan.

I have known people that work for the biggest (best?) insurance companies. Their job definition was very clear, to find ways to NOT pay claims. They were in what the companies call LOSS PREVENTION. The companies consider paying the claims that you are paying them to pay as LOSS...

:coolsmiley:

You seem to infer that Medicaid is the cause of the debt, which of course, it is not. The debt has increased in the last two years due to the lack of corporate tax income which drastically lowered revenue.

If insurance companies didn't question some treatments proposed by doctors, there would be quack clinics on every street corner performing bogus treatments for thousands of dollars. And, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between effective and ineffective treatments and medicine.

Bingo:popcorn: