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-   The Villages, Florida, Non Villages Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/)
-   -   Michael Vick (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/michael-vick-42966/)

Oren L Miller 10-02-2011 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydoc (Post 401647)
A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.
I agree 100%. I could not have said this any better. My wife and I rescued dogs for many years and I get very emotional about people abusing them. You are obviously a very learned person and you said this eloquently. :agree::agree:

villagegolfer 10-02-2011 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydoc (Post 401647)
A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.
Well, I have read many books and do not have a degree, so I guess I am dum.

Elitists make me laugh. They go to school and have to listen to pompous "professors" who have received their knowledge from their pompous professors .who have no real life experience. Most have lived in their Ivy towers and speak down to the unwashed masses like the pompous a**** that they are.

bkcunningham1 10-02-2011 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlegirl (Post 401437)
background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.
I saw an episode of The Dog Whisperer where he greatly helped a dog which had a similar fear of people and had been abused like the dog you wrote about.

Who had debarked your dog?

PennBF 10-02-2011 10:18 PM
Education
 
Below are some thoughts when being critical of books and education. I am
surprised that some would think that education and reading implies an
elist or snobish person as opposed to an informed individual.

“I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education."
Thomas Jefferson
“A room without books is like a life without meaning.”
Thomas Jefferson
"Bear in mind that the wonderful things you learn in your schools are the work of many generations, produced by enthusiastic effort and infinite labor in every country of the world. All this is put into your hands as your inheritance in order that you may receive it, honor it, add to it, and one day faithfully hand it to your children. Thus do we mortals achieve immortality in the permanent things which we create in common."
Albert Einstein
"It is not so very important for a person to learn facts. For that he does not really need a college. He can learn them from books. The value of an education in a liberal arts college is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think something that cannot be learned from textbooks."
Albert Einstein
“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education”
Thomas Jefferson
:popcorn:

ilovetv 10-02-2011 10:41 PM
So, what books should Michael Vick read?

Pturner 10-03-2011 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by villagegolfer (Post 400219)
Do you know for a fact that he is not in therapy? Is he on probation? Does he still talk to groups about the dangers of hurting animals? Do you know if he was classified as having a mental illness. Maybe he was just brought up like that. Maybe he was taught those things. Maybe it is like a wife beater who knows other way because his father did that?
A bit off-topic, but in response to this post...

So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog? And that both are understandable if that's how a person was raised?

It seems to me that both wife and animal abusers do know right from wrong, regardless of what they were taught. Do you agree? Both deny their crimes to authorities when confronted, for example.

No matter what one was taught, do you agree that their criminal behavior, whether assaulting wife or dog, is a choice?

Villagegolfer, it sounds from your post that perhaps you see this differently. Thanks for any clarification.

Doodlegirl 10-03-2011 10:21 AM
Bkcunningham - above question
 
The same man who mercilessly abused him. By hand, in the backyard of his home, reached in and yanked his vocal cords with a fork. Four years ago I found a Veterinary Surgeon who specializes in these repairs (seems it is an old school way of debarking a dog) and knew the story through a website for which I am e-agent, and as a gift for my work in rescue of this specific breed of dog, he performed corrective surgery as best as was possible. Gus can now "woof", but seldom does.

villagegolfer 10-03-2011 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pturner (Post 401779)
A bit off-topic, but in response to this post...

So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog? And that both are understandable if that's how a person was raised?

It seems to me that both wife and animal abusers do know right from wrong, regardless of what they were taught. Do you agree? Both deny their crimes to authorities when confronted, for example.

No matter what one was taught, do you agree that their criminal behavior, whether assaulting wife or dog, is a choice?

Villagegolfer, it sounds from your post that perhaps you see this differently. Thanks for any clarification.
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I merely stated that certain behaviors are learned. Certain cultures are learned. In certain cultures women have no rights, what so ever. Women are possessions to do as the man says. I believe in certain places where we have troops on the ground now?
I myself have never abused a women or animal and I have had two rescue dogs and I resent your implications strongly.

collie1228 10-03-2011 12:00 PM
villagegolfer, I don't see where Pturner put any words in your mouth. She asked a few reasonable questions, a couple of which came to my mind as well when I read your post. No need to get angry show your impatience. I'd love to read your answers.

villagegolfer 10-03-2011 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collie1228 (Post 401812)
villagegolfer, I don't see where Pturner put any words in your mouth. She asked a few reasonable questions, a couple of which came to my mind as well when I read your post. No need to get angry show your impatience. I'd love to read your answers.
Quote:
So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog?
I find that question offensive. That's all. I have no patience for questions like that. Assaulting a wife or dog is against the law. I approve of neither. I find the question as a form of baiting.

gatherer47 10-03-2011 12:18 PM
To me Vick is a thug pure and simple!

LivingLarge 10-03-2011 03:50 PM
To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.

bkcunningham1 10-03-2011 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingLarge (Post 401896)
To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.

Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.

LivingLarge 10-03-2011 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkcunningham1 (Post 401913)
Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.
After reading my post I want to also reiterate that YES I know what Vick did was beyond just dog fighting. My point was that it wasn't just a "let's torture the dogs for the heck of it" thing. Wrong of course.

billethkid 10-03-2011 06:18 PM
Vick's destiny was preordained by the NFL and his fans before he went to prison to serve his tokenism punishment.
Like other celebrities who have gotten away with murder and politicians who have done wrong with no impact on their professional lives, Vick to is above the law. And to say it was not as though he intended torture of the animals implies some concern for the animals well being which there was none. Killing, burying the dogs and raising them with no more intent than to win $$$$ and killing the maimed and or losers is just more tolerance for a dastardly, immoral, inhumane deed than the reality of how terrible the deeds were.

The deed was smoothed over to get a hand slap with a preordained return to the NFL;;;;a joke....permissive pacifism at it's worst...$$$$ talks a lot more than morality for the NFL and the fans who accept what was done.....for the sake of the game......BS!!!!!!!!!

btk

LivingLarge 10-03-2011 06:49 PM
BTK - Respectfully have to disagree.

Looks like Vick was sentenced to a normal sentence ( maybe rather harshly when considering he had a previous clean record with some alligations but no convictions). You (and I) may want more but the justice system has spoken.

duffysmom 10-03-2011 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by billethkid (Post 401940)
Vick's destiny was preordained by the NFL and his fans before he went to prison to serve his tokenism punishment.
Like other celebrities who have gotten away with murder and politicians who have done wrong with no impact on their professional lives, Vick to is above the law. And to say it was not as though he intended torture of the animals implies some concern for the animals well being which there was none. Killing, burying the dogs and raising them with no more intent than to win $$$$ and killing the maimed and or losers is just more tolerance for a dastardly, immoral, inhumane deed than the reality of how terrible the deeds were.

The deed was smoothed over to get a hand slap with a preordained return to the NFL;;;;a joke....permissive pacifism at it's worst...$$$$ talks a lot more than morality for the NFL and the fans who accept what was done.....for the sake of the game......BS!!!!!!!!!

btk
Well said.

villagegolfer 10-03-2011 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingLarge (Post 401953)
BTK - Respectfully have to disagree.

Looks like Vick was sentenced to a normal sentence ( maybe rather harshly when considering he had a previous clean record with some alligations but no convictions). You (and I) may want more but the justice system has spoken.
Well said.

Pturner 10-03-2011 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingLarge (Post 401896)
To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkcunningham1 (Post 401913)
Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.
Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.

MrMark 10-04-2011 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pturner (Post 402007)
Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.
And just where might it stand relative to: Bull Fighting; Deer Hunting; Child Abuse; Murder; Spousal abuse; etc., etc., etc.

Move on to something else. Vick has been punished enough or don't you know that the Eagles have lost 3 games in a row.

mulligan 10-04-2011 07:01 AM
I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?

bkcunningham1 10-04-2011 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pturner (Post 402007)
Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.
I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into it yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episo...problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

PennBF 10-04-2011 11:59 AM
Great Quote
 
I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.:popcorn:

ilovetv 10-04-2011 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan (Post 402074)
I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?
That really is the crux of the matter.

Pturner 10-04-2011 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkcunningham1 (Post 402084)
I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episo...problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/
Hi BK, thank you for the links. The info is disheartening. No doubt there are more irresponsible dog breeders than we care to realize. A distinction I would make is that there are responsible and irresponsible, even reprehensible, dog breeders. There are no respectable animal torturers.

villagegolfer 10-04-2011 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PennBF (Post 402189)
I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.:popcorn:
Would you kill a terrorist knowing that he/she was willing and ready to kill thousands of people?

PennBF 10-05-2011 11:37 AM
No Humor
 
I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?:shrug:

villagegolfer 10-05-2011 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PennBF (Post 402598)
I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?:shrug:
Don't worry, it will take greater minds to embarrass me. Someone here has philosophized this subject to no avail.
Also, the ADMIN frowns on personal attacks.

ilovetv 10-05-2011 11:57 AM
I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as an entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans who are teaching kids it's okay to overlook such heroes' behavior when not on stage.

villagegolfer 10-05-2011 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetv (Post 402603)
I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as and entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans.
I was accused of seeing things in black and white and not seeing the gray. That person said there were nuances. Is every abuse case a black and white?

graciegirl 10-05-2011 01:29 PM
As a child The Baltimore Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church said that there were mortal and veniel sins.

I don't know if that is still taught that some bad things were far worse than other bad things.

I do still think that there are some things more heinous than others.

Killing a fly to me is not the same as killing an animal that is for many a family pet and for some. loved like a child.

I think that torturing an animal for the sick sake of watching it hurt is very serious behavior and an indication of mental illness.

Harry Gilbert 10-05-2011 03:09 PM
I got curious so I looked up the sentencing guidelines for dog fighting. Fed and State. Most are in the 3-5 year range but that doesn't mean that judges have to sentence the max and most don't. At the time of Vick's arrest the max Fed sentence was 1 year which he received along with 11 months for a interstate commerce charge.

Like it or not he did his time. Do I condone his actions NO but there are a lot of actions I don't condone

As far as hero figures

Michael Irvin: caught with cocaine made the HOF and still working on TV
Sammy Sosa: cheating and drug use
Lance Armstrong: jury still out on him
Tiger Woods: :ohdear:
and many more.

Why no mention of any of these fallen athletes? But many posts on Vick?

PennBF 10-05-2011 04:38 PM
Basic Debate
 
A basic debate or negiotation reqirement is if I convince you I am right you will change your mind, if you convince me you are right I will change my mind. Absent of these fundemental commitments it is not a debate or very valuable discussion since neither is agreeable to change. It would appear this is the condition in this thead and any further words are useless unless there is a need to just repeat oneself?:undecided:


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