Debate
 

Regarding the ones that feel there should be a debate on the issue. Since
reading the input I am convinced that some are not really interested in a sincere discussioin on the subject as their comments have no basis in fact. I believe I provided some direction as to research references regarding certain anti social behaviors. I would be more than willing to have an interchange of ideas where there is more than a just unfounded statement on the subject meant to just argue. This is not too cchallenging. To repeat some references that would be good reading and research, : "How to Spot a Borderline Personality", "The Psychopath Test:A Test a Journey Through..","The Sociopath Next Door", "Snakes in Suits", "Clues to Deceit, A Practical Lies". I guess the book to best start with is "The Sociopath Next Door". It was written by a Harvard Professor who I believe spent the better part of her career studying sociopath behavior, symptons, etc.etc.:popcorn:

I have been involved with the rescue and rehabilitation of abused animals for almost thirty years. It is both one of the most heart-wrenching and most gratifying volunteer activities I have ever had the honor to participate. I have also generously supported many no kill animal shelters for as long as I can remember.

At this very moment, I am caring for a beautiful female dog (Golden Retriever mix) that is approximately 4 or 5 years of age who has suffered greatly from neglect and physical abuse. She is very timid and especially afraid of men which is not uncommon with abused dogs, since so many abusers are men, but not all, of course.

Those of us who are intimately involved with animal welfare issues were not the least bit surprised to learn that Michael Vick had a long history of animal torture dating back to his childhood. Nor were we surprised when he received such a short incarceration for such heinous crimes.

This whole sordid issue with Michael Vick and his malicious treatment of dogs underscores the need for more public awareness of animal torture.

Many people are unaware of the strong connection between animal torture and other kinds of deviant behaviors such as rape, pedophilia, and spousal abuse. So, while some may wish to ignore animal cruelty, they are also ignoring the danger these psychopaths present to humans as well.

For those of you who feel that the NFL was justified in allowing Michael Vick to return to his “former life” as a football player, I would suggest you go to your nearest animal shelter and adopt a dog or cat that has been viciously tortured at the hand of a human being.

Only then will you understand just how evil Michael Vick really is and why he should still be behind bars.

Annabelle

PS
Please don’t ask me if I have the same concern for children as I do for animals.
I spent more than thirty years as an Educator and I am very proud to have made a worthy contribution in the education of each and every child I taught.

PSS PennBF I have enjoyed reading your posts as well as others who realize the seriousness of this whole issue of animal cruelty.

PSSS For anyone interested in reading how a real man treats his dog(s) please
pick up a copy of Mark Levin’s book “Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover’s Story of
Joy and Anguish”........ a great book.

Wonderful Note
 

Annabelle..What a great note..It is gratifying to know there are people
like you who are willing to rescue these poor abused animals and hold
the people responsible for their acts of cruelty. !! :bigbow:

I'll make one final comment in this thread.

1. I think every response has indicated that they abhor what Vick did to those animals.

2. Everyone can respect those that care deeply for animals and especially those that take time out of their lives to serve as rescue owners.

3. The only debate is on the subject of the fairness of the criminal justice system and the goal of rehabilitation for the offender. Some feel that he should be given a chance to redeem himself and move on with his life after serving the time and others feel that he should not or that he is not capable of changing. No need to cloud the issue with long diatribes on subjects (1 and 2) that we already agree on.

Well said Russ. The fact is that Vick satisfied his debt to society as prescribed by the court, and whether or not that was sufficient is obviously a matter of debate. Vick is not a hero to me, but I beleive in redemption and hope that he has truly changed his heart and mind. As Redwitch said so eloquently, he is making an effort above and beyond his requirements to change the hearts and minds of young people about the treatment of animals and maybe that will ultimately outweigh his odorous past.

Just Can't Get
 

Some just can't get it. I would be more than willing to discuss the subject of
"consequence's" once the person has educated themselves on the subject of
serious mental illness's and it's long term effects. This is not a traffic
violation, a petty crime of chance, etc. It is allegedly an indication of a very serious mental problem which is not correctable in a year and half of jail time.
I know this might blow the minds of some of the "give him a break" writers but there are certain mental illness's [Ref:Sociopath Next Door] (e.g. sociopaths, etc.) in which there is no known cure. Again, if someone can come back with facts which demonstrate that being an organizer and sponsor of watching animals fight and torture each other and kill each other and then go out for dinner as it is just a passing past time and the person still has a working normal conscience I would like to see these facts. I will save you the research as I seriously doubt they exist but I would be interested if you can find them..!!!:undecided:

"When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudice, and motivated by pride and vanity”
Dale Carnegie

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)[/QUOTE]

I'll take you up on that offer.:evil6:

Than you Russ for putting into words what I was thinking.:agree:

Education
 

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.
I understand?

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read.
I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist"..

You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved.
If you torture and kill anything for "sport" then it is a pretty safe assumption that some mental illness is involved. That is not rocket science.

To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement.

No, just those crimes that involve torture, killing, pedophiles, sexual deviants,sexual predators,...you can fill in the additional blanks. I guess the culture where drug usage and dealing is accepted makes drug dealing and selling to children just another expression of their culture.

I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.
How about identifying sexual predators? Is it not a law that they must register and tell the authorities where they are "FOR LIFE"..

I guess now I'm done.
If I gave you some curiosity to educate yourself on this subject then my time has been well spent. :undecided:

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site
__________________

"Snob" is the descriptor that comes closer to describing your stance than "elitist". Russ: don't leave, and I won't hit you in the head, your opinions and contributions are stellar.

NOTICE: This is obviously a topic some are passionate about. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. We don't and won't all agree on this topic. We ask that the thread remains civil and respectful so it can remain open. Thank you in advance.

I was just thinking that this is a true debate between Pennf and Russ Boston.

Both have made very valid points and both have made me think.

I would hate, HATE, to lose either of them from this forum.

I very much appreciate PennF's last response. I think that was very civil and I understand the opinion of those that think jail time alone is no cure. What I don't know is what Vick has undertaken since his release to rehabilitate himself. I do know that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell does not take this lightly. Vick wasn't welcomed back to the NFL without major counseling & mentoring (do a Google search on Vick & Tony Dungy for example). The NFL has suspended many players who weren't even convicted of a crime (Ben Roethlisberger for example). Unlike some sports where money is tight the NFL has no such issues.

As far as the elitist comment goes: I would never use any explanation in a reply where my knowledge (i.e. medical) was put on display and then questioned without giving a full explanation in terms that someone not in the field would understand. To me it's not right to say something and then, when questioned, just say "go read a book". TOTV is an exchange of ideas and knowledge for our mutual benefit.

Thank You
 

Thanks Russ. I sort of stopped any further discussion on my part as some have called names and that really has no place in a debate. :popcorn:

[QUOTE=angiefox10;398847]for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

AngieFox,

Angie,
Great post!!!
And great to know there are so many animal lovers here on TOTV.

Annabelle

PennBF,
When one resorts to "name calling" then you know he has lost the debate.
Your posts have been nothing less than straight-forward, intelligent and very polite.

Annabelle

Facts about animal abusers
 

Russ Boston's reply to PennBF

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)[/quote]

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com[/QUOTE]

What she is saying is correct. Abusing animals, bedwetting and fascination with fire (when they occur together) are the big 3 for predicting bad things to come. Will every person displaying these behaviors become violent? Probably not. Will a greater number show violence then those who do not have these behaviors? Probably so.

[quote=Annabelle;401197]Who are these people you are accusing? I haven't seen them. I have rescued two dogs and have spent many days trying to gain their confidence and love. Just because some people say things that you do not agree to, is no reason to call them ignorant. :ohdear:

Define ignorant
 

[quote=villagegolfer;401228]The definition of ingnorant is not knowing or not understanding. In my humble opinion the people who think he was punished enough didn't read the book "The Lost Dogs". I don't think they understand how bad the abuse really was. I don't think they understand the breadth or depth of the abuse. I think they just thought he was guilty of perpetrating dog fighting. I don't think they understand his role in the injustices that were perpetrated on the dogs. I would really like to have a conversation with you about this after you have read the book. It might give you a more informed basis to make your posts about.

I don't think any of us said he was punished enough. We said he was punished according to the law and today's justice. I don't think the punishment fit the crime but, then, I've never thought that the sentences (usually just a hand slap and a fine) for animal abuse were enough. I worked on two campaigns in California to raise the penalties for animal abuse. One passed, one did not. Even so, it's still not enough.

I do stand behind the fact that Vicks has spoken against animal abuse and his actions since being released from prison. More importantly, he has done so long after the court-mandated community service was up and he continues to talk at schools to this day. It may be a publicity and public relations stunt to make him look good, but the talks do make a difference. They do get kids to see where dog fighting is evil. The SPCA and other animal rights groups have repeatedly said that the best spokesmen against animal abuse are former perpetrators. They do speak from knowledge and, strangely, from the heart when they speak of their past actions.

The legal system is broken
 

I have no faith in our legal system. We have laws for the poor and the middle income and the rich people. I was hoping animal lovers everywhere would band together and not watch or go to games he was playing in to provide a more fitting punishment.

Wow! I don't think there was this much "discussion" over the Casey Anthony decision.

I believe Annabelle and I must share the same opinions,
 

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

Thank you for your post. I want to bawl my eyes out just reading it, much less seeing the scars in person.

As for this whole Vick matter, isn't the heart of it all the fact that our society idolizes Hollywood stars, politicians, and college/pro athletes, purposely disregarding their having no morals or common decency???

idol·ize verb \ˈī-də-ˌlīz\

Definition of IDOLIZE

transitive verb

: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess

Yes...we are losing core values
 

sometimes I worry that they are lost now.

I wept when I read about Gus and at the same time I feel anger for the perpetrators. Sometimes I feel that we are lost as a soceity and then I read about people like you and Annabelle and feel better knowing that there are people who put their beliefs into action. God bless you and Gus.

Tears in my eyes
 

Sitting here playing with our three dogs is the most sane part of my day. They understand we all need unconditional love. I'm a big guy but your post made me tear up. I would love to meet your baby some day if I wouldn't scare him. I want him to know there are people out there that do care and a lot of people that have not lost their moral compass. I'm sorry he met on that never did have one and never will. Rehabilitated my ass. :cus:

My favorite post on this thread, so far. Smack in the head clarity. Brilliant.

I agree
 

:agree::agree::agree:

On Casey Anthony 99.9 percent of the people think she got away with murder. On Michael Vic an over whelming majority think he should be worshipped as a superstar. Sad day isn't it?

Comparison
 

Casey Anthony is the most hated woman in the USA. Michael Vic is a superstar making millions of dollars and considered a model human being. Seriously?

I personally do not know one person who has told me that they hate Miss Anthony. On the other hand, I have been told by people that they admire Vicks for repenting and doing his talks about animal abuse. Seems like a swell guy to me.

"What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read."

"I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist".."
__________________________________________________ _______________
For those who asked what I meant by posts being anti-education, this is a good example. Yes, in fact, people who have studied subjects for years in school and then gathered more experiencial knowledge applying what they learned in the world, probably do, in fact, know more about those subjects. Why that makes one elitist or a snob (as someone said), I don't understand. It does makes you more knowledgable. You can decide to believe or not believe the facts; thats up to you; but stop attacking the messenger!

You don't need to read the book. The facts are that he deliberately abused animals for money and personal pleasure. The emotions are that he is a hero and superstar. Myself - I go with the facts.

As the one who used the snob word I would like to defend myself. I called the poster a snob because of the condescending attitude that was taken, and not the fact that they advocated reading and learning. As a long time educator myself, I beleive in education, but you can read all kinds of books that totally disagree about almost any subject and eventually you must accept or reject the various hypothesis based on your own feelings, biases, and prejudices as well as the theories put forth in the books. "Facts" that are irrefutable are a bit hard to come by, so I tend to be skeptical of anyone who puports to have all the "facts".

Casey Anthony deserves to be the most hated woman in the USA. She's right up there with O.J.

I'm not all that sure Vick is seen as a model human being, but unlike Anthony, he seems honest in his repentance.

Although the mistreatment of the dogs was atrocious, and he should and did have to pay the piper, I view the mistreatment of human beings as a hugely more serious matter.

Do you people know the living conditions and treatment of the animals that are raised and caged and slaughtered for your dining pleasure? It's not very pretty.

A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.