Originally Posted by blueash (Post 807578)

Sorry to disagree GG but choosing this place is not mean it is symbolic. When the members of the dominant religion in this country feel it has become their "right" because this is a "Christian" country to place symbols of their gods and their books and their tenets on public land and buildings the message heard by many is a big FU to people who don't share those stories. Apparently some Christians feel that having to opportunity to express their beliefs in their own homes, in their own tax-free buildings, in their schools, and dominating the culture in the country is not enough. Apparently needing to see symbols of their faith displayed on property they don't own or religiously control is needed to reaffirm their beliefs. When the reason given is that the public location is equally available to others and that the placement of Christian symbols is not any endorsement by government of that religion then members of any religion or non-religion must be allowed to counterbalance the appearance of government favoritism so as to prove there is none. Thus Oklahoma is perfect. If the heart of the bible belt understands that unless atheists, Satanists, Mormons, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Animists, Pastafarians.... etc. are given equal opportunity to express themselves in a public forum then and only then does the promise of religious freedom have any chance of being fulfilled. If only Christian (which Christian? I seem to recall wars fought over which version is "true") symbols are to be on public display then the first amendment means nothing. Religion is only mentioned twice in our Constitution. Both times the Founders were taking the time to make clear that religion has nothing to do with governing. So if seeing a statue of Satan, or of Krishna, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster at the Florida state capitol Florida Capital approves Pastafarian Holiday display « Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster given equal consideration on public property and in public hearings makes Christians uncomfortable then all that needs to happen is for Christians to push for laws to prohibit the use of public facilities for any religious purpose. I am sure the Satanists will support such legislation.

Originally Posted by Golfingnut (Post 808118)

I am still a Methodist (considering atheism), but a Christian none the less. Not sure if that is considered religious or not. In my humble opinion, this is definitely about religious freedom.

That is, religious freedom for all and not just for us Christians. This issue should be as easy to accept as allowing women to vote. I see us in a wonderful time right now that has laws being passed insuring that all Americans are allowed to practice their rights and freedoms that certain faiths still hide to do.

Originally Posted by ilovetv (Post 808108)

Actually, Jesus DID author and "write down" EVERYTHING about Himself, in the Hebrew Scriptures He-GOD inspired men to write in the Scrolls, in which He was schooled in the Temple and taught as a Rabbi (and hence was not "illiterate"!!!!!!!!!).

John 3
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God....
5 ...Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24 NASB - The Resurrection - But on the first day - Bible Gateway

Originally Posted by buggyone (Post 808136)

Not so sure of your second paragraph. Surely you do not believe that a pagan religion in the US should be allowed to practice virgin sacrifices; or a religious sect be allowed to have marriages between men and little girls; or religions practicing honor killings in the name of their church. Some would consider these to be religious freedoms. I don't and I doubt that even in Parkersburg would you find those that would agree those are religious freedoms that should be allowed in America.

Originally Posted by onslowe (Post 808178)

Gee Whillikers! I can't find my original 2100 year old copy of the 'Palestine Post' with the headline "Tomb Vacant! Centurions Stumped!" Guess mom threw it out with my '50's baseball player cards. Gee, no sense in arguing anymore, I can't play 'show and tell!'

No reason to bring up the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Son of God scroll in particular. Probably written by 'religious people' and we all know about them.

I'll just forget about this thread and curl up with a good ol' Dan Brown book. He tells it like it really is, by gum.

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 808181)

This thread is illustrative of a number of things.

First like politicians people of differing philosophies will seldom agree and if there on the fringe of said philosophy they will never agree.

Secondly , by its very nature, it is an easier argument to mouth all or nothing and to otherwise berate people of belief .

Third some people are still afraid of Christians because of the commitment it requires.

Fourth: non-believers argue not separation of church and state but destruction of the Christian religion and perhaps with some, all religion. Those pseudo-intellectuals feel superior to believers but in my humble view intellectualize themselves into irrelevance and betray themselves as did
Madalyn O' Hair who demonstrated her bitterness and hatred for Christians

Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 808194)

Boy Howdy and love to Rubicon and Onslowe who can keep their humor and patience. When I grow up I want to be just like them.


Blessings too.


And I can't help being myself, questioning, hoping, watching and hopefully learning. And yes praying because most of the time, I believe.


Please close this thread. It is very disturbing and ugly to me and I imagine to the majority of readers. This did not begin as a question of the separation of Church and State. It began as a question of whether the end justified the means in this issue of folks from another part of the country coming to the Bible belt and stirring things up, I believe maliciously.


I don't have a problem with the separation of Church and State. I have a huge problem with viciousness and meanness for no good reason.

Originally Posted by donb9006 (Post 808379)

You'd think that SOMEONE would deem it important enough to document... The people involved perhaps? You'd think they'd find SOMEONE to write some of this down...if nothing else to insure they didn't forget anything. After all, it's God talking, you should write it down.. I certainly would.

If you're going to base your entire life on something, I'd expect you'd want more than someones "word". Or is that just the skeptic in me?

The scrolls are Jewish and say NOTHING about Jesus. So why bring them up?

I just want you to know something about what you believe so fervently in. What you THINK you know isn't necessarily so. You owe it to yourself to be informed if you're going to give so much of yourself to something. I'm not trying to drive you from your faith but I do want you to know the other side of what you're told. There's a lot of misinformation spread around out there...



There are Christians, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Muslims, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Jews, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Hindi who believe THEY are the only way to nirvana. There are Buddhists who believe They have the only answers. Pagans have their thoughts. Wiccans, Spiritualists, Native Americans, even Atheists...ALL believe only they KNOW. The trouble is...only one is correct.

We may never agree but did you give the other side a chance?



Who is being vicious?

If a discussion "is very disturbing and ugly to me" then why don't you simply not click on it? Have the willpower to just move on never reading it again...just pass it by. Is censorship or banning a discussion you're personally "uncomfortable with" the answer? Really? NOT discussing important issues is why things are the way they are.

Originally Posted by donb9006 (Post 808379)

There are Christians, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes.

Originally Posted by onslowe (Post 807623)

Well said Gracie and Rubicon. And in the most civil manner possible, I do find humor in the assertion above that the Decalogue of Judaism and Christianity set up in public (Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal, etc) should be a "slap in the face" or a big "FU" to our oft persecuted little Satanists and other precious 'minorities.'

The Founders did not ever ever write a 'separation' of church and state into the Constitution. They said Congress could make no law 'establishing' a religion, like the Church of England! That's all. Our media experts have been trying to say that Christianity, and indeed Judaism is a monolithic 'religion' when such is absolutely laughable and reveals ignorance of terms. The founders meant specific religions, i.e. Anglicianism, Quakerism, Lutherans, etc. Not an all out prohibition against anything Christian! Please look at our history and not MSNBC. One letter, 13 years later, by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church in Danbury, contained the seed of this errant position not embraced by the Founders.

In 1947, Justices Black and Douglas, among some others, decided it was 'separation' and applied it to the states. Something not in the Constitution suddenly became a 'corner piece' to one segment of this society, and shoved down the throat of the, excuse the bad word, majority.

Now what if a little boy or girl sees the statue of Satan and get really spooked and scared and needs psychological help? Can the parents sue the State of Oklahoma? What if the statue of Satan is 'vandalized?' Is that a hate crime to our 'live and let live folks?

Funny, I've not heard of Moslem, Buddhist, or other faith communities complaining.

Sorry, the motive here is exactly what Gracie said.