Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Unfortunately, this election is becoming a sporting event rather than the hiring of a public employee.

I have heard more garbage about "electability" and "change" and "inexperience" and "which VP candidate could garner the more votes" than what substantive effort is to occur post-election. Where is there any concern about AMERICA? It's become "my side won" regardless of what constitutes that "side."

No matter what, the slate is clean for each candidate. Sen. Obama is his own person, as Sen. McCain is as well. Neither are Pres. Bush and that administration is down to its last few weeks. The constant trying to link Sen. McCain as a continuum of the Bush administration is as idiotic as claiming Sen. Obama will turn the nation into the first North American Islamic republic. Neither position has any merit and rates as "dirty pool."

The simple question is always the best - if you were hiring the person with your own money (which you are) to perform duties affecting your home (which one will) as your employee (which that person will be) and locking yourself into trusting the person's judgment to do a good job (which you are) and giving the person a four-year exclusive contract to do the job (which is what happens) AND trusting that the person will not be influenced by others with interests of their own (a la the "Party" leadership) despite what may be your best interests, then WHICH CANDIDATE GETS HIRED? This isn't the selection of a king or messiah, but the hiring of an employee by committee.

For a Floridian, this does get a little more complicated when the backers of one candidate have already told Floridians they don't count in the equation, and the candidate has not rebutted that rebuke other than to say "those are the party rules, (and the party does rule)" but you can be worth a half a vote as a toss-in. I prefer to be more than a half-a-vote, and if not equal to others, then to *$^^ with the party!

"Backbone" is probably the most important trait for my employee, and it always has been for anyone I've ever hired. No backbone means no ethics. Not having a backbone when it comes to "the Party" only means not having one to represent or defend my interests.

School is still out, and the party conventions may give the candidates an open forum to show if each is hisr own man or just another party puppet. The "Florida and Michigan" situation, and how it is handled by Sen. Obama will measure his backbone, as how Sen. McCain handles himself before a convention seeking stability and confidence.

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

If one uses this forum, or the media as a resource, to determine a candidates qualifications the obvious conclusion would be neither is qualified, experienced, suited to, etc, etc for the job.

Regarding back grounds and how it may or may not influence decisions/directions/etc....not to worry....remember they are POLITICIANS so they will say what ever y'all want to hear to get elected. They will do what ever they want that is in the best interest of their personal/party/special interest groups needs....whether supported by the American majority or not (Just like Pelosi and Bush, eh?).
There is little they as an individual can deliver by them selves.....and it usually takes a couple of years for the winner to find they don't have the Omnipotent power, they dreamed about while campaigning. Therefore it really does not matter who wins.

As for affecting any outcomes in the MidEast......does anybody really believe any American President will influence what they do. The last few centuries there are testimony to that.

Lest we forget....and we all do....9/11...how it affected our leaders state and federal...as well as all the rest of us.....the most memorable visions of the immediate post 9/11 days was the fact there was unity in Washington, albeit brief (they forget faster than the rest of us because they have no power of recollection). When the next act of terrorism on and in America happens, it will most likely be worse than 9/11....the terrorist have promised that and they are not promises like politicians make, they are real as born out by history.

The US at war in another country to protect the US once upon a time was a unifying factor. That no longer exists. Are we destined to unify only when under attack?

As you weigh the candidate of your choice they will continue to remind you in the coming weeks why they are the one to vote for (Oh excuse me, I almost forgot...they will constantly remind you why the other guy is not good for the job).

For me it is not all the political fluff, nor the media, nor the price of gas, or the war in Iraq et al, rebate checks, black, white or other. It is who will be sitting in that seat when the next 9/11-like incident happens... and who the running mate is in case the President is included in the attack. That is what motivates my evaluation.

BTK

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Yes!

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

I have no problems with liberals...I was once very very active in the Democratic party. I have never nor will I ever distribute the various emails that circulate, nor have I on purpose allowed one of the various circulating items on the net influence me. I like to make up my own mind.

A Democrat is not a liberal. A liberal can be a Democrat and is more likely to vote the Democratic ticket. A liberal can be a Republican. A true liberal is neither -- we choose who we think will stand for the individual more than for big business and government. I've voted Republican (Nixon and proud of it), Democratic (Carter and not so thrilled with that choice), Independent (Perot and still sorry he didn't win).

I, personally, do not want anything close to socialized medicine....I, personally, do not want my taxes to pay for anyone else's failings (THAT DOES NOT MEAN I AM A CRUEL HEARTLESS PERSON) and that is where this is headed.

Well, I'm one of those people who has been ruined financially because of lack of health insurance. Do I want socialized medicine? Not really. Do I want to see some of affordable, viable national health insurance? You better believe I do! The fact I have no health insurance is not due to a lack of tryng. It is due to the fact I had melanoma (Stage 3) 16 years ago and no company is willing to cover me. No, you're not cruel nor heartless but, unless you've been put into the situation of not being able to get medical coverage through no fault of your own, you have no idea of the difficulties nor of the need of the government to do something about this.

I also do not want to be dismissed everytime I say something that is true by being told how I am being negative or using innuendo or being negative. That is becoming the norm this election. This has nothing to do with race either and I dont want to hear that.

When you go on about the fact that Sen. Obama's father or stepfather was a Muslim and do not mention Obama has categorically denied being Muslim, you are in fact relying on innuendo. To be fearful of every Muslim (there are more moderate Muslims than extremists although it is the extremists that get the press -- what a surprise there, eh?) and to imply Obama will support the extremists is, in my mind, in fact bigoted -- not against the fact Obama is black but the fact that his family background is not quite the norm in America and does smack of racism as well. Sorry, that's how I see it and so long as you mention Obama and his Muslim background you're not going to convince me you're not racist in this matter.

I am not FOR war either as folks seem to want to imply when discussing Sen Obama, and I dont believe either candidate is.

McCain has stated more than once that he sees nothing wrong with the war in Iraq continuing for years. He has also stated more than once that he can foresee attacking Iran. Sounds pretty hawkish to me. I have yet to hear McCain say a word about trying diplomatic channels (not that they'd work in the Middle East -- this is not a recent war there, they've been battling snce before Jesus and will probably be battling long into the future). Even so, diplomatic channels and economic sanctions are still far better options than war.

gf and I have gone round and round about posts exactly like this one time and again. When you object to Obama because of his lack of experience, I have no issues with you and can only say you have a valid point and one that causes me concern. When you say Obama comes from one of the most corrupt political machines (the Chicago Democrats) in the country, again, I have no issue with that beng said other than some good politicians have come from incredibly corrupt political machines. When you say Obama is a liberal (first time I've heard the argument that he is an extremist but I'm sure many believe that), all I can say is, "So what, I'm a liberal and I happen to like me and my ethics and morals." When you comment about the people he has had as frends in the past and who his mentors were, I'm back to so what. One of my mentors in college was Angela Davis. A good friend was Lou Alcindor. I used to run track with Tommie Smith. More than a few of my professors that I truly admired and can say I learned a tremendous amount from were avowed communists. I am not nor have I ever been pro-Black Panther. I've seen communism in action and loathe what it does to individuals.

I wish we had better choices, I truly do. We don't. I do believe both of these men love this country. I'm thoroughly convinced neither man is the right man for the job. The American people are not being given good choices. The last truly great man we had as President was, in my opinion, Harry S. Truman -- he did what he thought was right, not what was politcally expedient. No way can a person today win by being honest, ethical and moral -- they'd be destroyed before they got off the local scene. So, we're stuck with politicians. When I vote, I no longer vote for the man or woman nor even what they say but rather I vote for their choices in advisors and staff. If they're strong, truly intelligent and have some ethics (can't ask for too many but one or two ethical and moral beliefs would be nice), then that is the person who will ultimately get my vote.

Okay, now I'm going to try to stay out of the political forum (again).

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

When you go on about the fact that Sen. Obama's father or stepfather was a Muslim and do not mention Obama has categorically denied being Muslim, you are in fact relying on innuendo. To be fearful of every Muslim (there are more moderate Muslims than extremists although it is the extremists that get the press -- what a surprise there, eh?) and to imply Obama will support the extremists is, in my mind, in fact bigoted -- not against the fact Obama is black but the fact that his family background is not quite the norm in America and does smack of racism as well. Sorry, that's how I see it and so long as you mention Obama and his Muslim background you're not going to convince me you're not racist in this matter.
__________________________________________________ ___________________

The only comment I have REDWITCH is that I NEVER EVER SAID WHAT YOU SAY I SAID...IN NO WAY...DIDNT EVEN IMPLY ANY OF WHAT YOU SAY. The above that you attribute to me is NOT TRUE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

If you respond to me...respond to ME...not in general.....

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

I did respond to you, Bucco. You basically implied that you agreed with gf's original post. As usual, gf started with Obama's heritage and the , instead you couldn't quite see what was inflammatory about the original post. You yourself have stated that you believe Obama's background counts but did not state which part (if only a part rather than all counts). Sorry, but unless you categorically state that you think at least parts of the original email posted are tripe, garbage or whatever, then you tar yourself with the brush. So, I stand by my comments.

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

I have, on many occasions in this forum, with as clear as language as you can said this his training and associates were important.....the word background...yes, but NEVER EVER EVER EVER mentioned anything personal about him as far as how he was raised..NOT ONCE. I have spoken ONLY of those people he associated with and never even told you their skin color and doubt if you looked it up to see that they were white.

This is typical however of anyone who supports Sen Obama...if you are not supporting him you are a racist !

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

I really don't want to see this turn into an argument. As I said, when you let statements stand about his heritage without stating that you believe they are irrelevant or wrong or whatever, you are basically implying you believe them correct. If you don't, then say so. If you do, then stand by your beliefs.

I do agree there are issues with his political background (so far as I know, the vast majority of the Chicago political machine are white; so are many of his college mentors -- I didn't have to look it up to know those facts). I have no issues with his personal background. Maybe if you prefaced that your issues are with his political friends and supporters, people like me wouldn't think you support the innuendo about his being a Muslim, communist, etc. Sorry, but I'm not going by your past statements (I really do try to stay out of the political forum but sometimes I just get sucked in, so have no idea what you said previously), I'm going by your statements in this one thread and here I got the impression that you agreed wholeheartedly with the original post.

I am not and probably will never be a big Obama supporter. I will vote for him for one reason only -- McCain scares me. At least Obama wants to try diplomatic routes rather than just saying 100 years in Iraq is okay with him or that invading Iran is a viable option (and Obama has not ruled out that these things could in fact happen).

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

No arguement...I will repost what I said about a week ago and IF you read it, and IF you verify what I am saying....and you are not afraid of this guy..well...

__________________________________________________ _____________________-
I am curious, could you please list the Marxists by name? Such a statement sounds very familiar, like a Senator from Wisconsin back in the 50s stating "I have a list of communists in the State Department." but never providing the list.
__________________________________________________ ______

Surely....not in any particular order...

SAUL ALINSKY....A fellow who lived and died in Chicago in 1972, the author of "Rules for Radicals"..one of his students was Cesar Chavez, and actually Hillary Clinton wrote her thesis on this guy but it was not allowed to see the light of day during the Clinton presidency. The following quote is from a writer who wrote on the connection between Sen Obama and Alinsky..."Finally, in 1983, he decided to follow in the footsteps of one of his heroes, radical leftist and communist fellow traveler, Saul Alinsky. He concluded, "That's what I'll do… I'll organize black folks at the grass roots… for change.". However this is from his memoirs "among his friends he included "the more politically active black students, foreign students, Chicanos, Marxist professors, feminists, and punk rock performance poets."
This is a quote from Sen Obama discussing some things about Alinsky....""Sometimes the tendency in community organizing of the sort done by Alinsky was to downplay the power of words and of ideas when in fact ideas and words are pretty powerful. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, all men are created equal.' Those are just words. 'I have a dream.' Just words."

There is a lot more out there but I am trying to keep away from the facts twister.

FRANK MARSHALL DAVIS...A labor activist known for his communist connections. He died in 1987 but during the 70s Sen Obama had a very close relationship with him and this is the guy that when Sen Obama refers to Frank his advisor that folks say he is referring to.

Again, I am trying to stay away from some of the other things out there because to my knowledge no verification on some stuff but lots and lots of smoke.

WILIAM AYERS...one of the famous WEATHERMEN of the 60's who bombed and killed. I cannot comment on any relationship here because the only facts are that Ayers contributed to Obamas campaign which in itself means nothing...they did served together at the same time on a board or two in Chicago however.

Now, I could add that Sen Obama has received an enthusiatic endorsement from the American Communist party or mention Rev Wright, etc, but my point is and always has been on this...

My concern with Sen Obama is that there is NO list of accomplishments for him...if you look at the current legislation he proffered in Congress (Global Poverty Act)..that is pretty socialist, and he himself has said he wants to "reallocate the worlds resources".....Lacking any achievements to make a consideration on, TO ME...it would seem that his training and past associates and those he calls mentors would be most important. Now, I find the above plus more but much of that falls into a catagory of hearsay...but this is what I have to go on...nothing more.

This is my concern...I am NOT a supporter of Sen McCain....I agree with some and disagree with other things he has done or stood for. In the case of Sen Obama, my concern is simply that he seems to stand for a very far left, socialist program and that is something I oppose.

I am open minded if you can allay any of my fears !

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Remember this we haven't been to the conventions yet you could end up with different candidates still. A long shot but it could happen. What a way to confuse us all. If it happened who would you want.

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Remember this we haven't been to the conventions yet you could end up with different candidates still. A long shot but it could happen. What a way to confuse us all. If it happened who would you want
__________________________________________________ ______--

What an interesting concept and thinking of any scenarios that would allow for that....but to play the game...

I like Mitt Romney on the Rep side and Joe Biden on the Dem side. Could live with either of those !

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Bucco, I've seen the list of communists and Marxists that were friends and mentors of Obama in his youth. So far as I know, they are not present-day mentors and that, to me, is much more important. If I'm wrong, let me know as this is something I would truly be interested in knowing.

As I said, I had many of the same ilk for mentors but West Coast style -- mine were more likely to turn to violence than his. The fact they were my mentors truly has little to nothing to do with my viewpoints then or now. They were anti-Vietnam and the military. I was anti-Vietnam war, pro military. They marched for peace, I wanted them out of my way so I could get to class. I did enjoy sitting and talking to them, getting their viewpoints; sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing.

As to the "Global Poverty Act," to me it's more of a soundbite than much of anything else. America has always been generous in giving to the rest of world. Sometimes for truly altruistc reasons, more frequently for political purposes.

As to a re-distribution of wealth, again, I'd say it sounds good and in some instances truly should occur (I'm thinking of areas where things like the old coal companies' stores and housing basically made serfs of the miners still exist in this country) and maybe when a company's profits are truly obscene some of that money should be given back to the consumers who were forced to pay outrageous sums for necessities. A CEO whose company has lost money and is fired should not be entitled to a golden umbrella package -- those funds should be given back to the company and its shareholders. So, I can think of instances when I do believe wealth should be distributed. From what I've heard, Sen. Obama is talking more of those type of scenarios than across-the-board disbursals.

There are checks and balances in place that would pretty much prevent Sen. Obama from turning the U.S. into a socialist state. I do believe in some of things he is espousing but I truly doubt he will be successful in implementing them in any major way. To me, the economy, the war in the Middle East, affordable health insurance for all, Amerca regaining its place as an educational leader, the environment are the important issues. To accomplish any of this, it is going to take a decent President with some very good advisors and staff.

Until the conventions are over, we're not really going to know who these advisors and staff will be. That's when it will get interesting and, hopefully, give us all a better idea of who the better man is.

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

Oops, forgot to mention this. The American Communist Party has not endorsed Obama (at least not that I could find). As a matter of fact, they have endorsed no candidate. However, they are historically opposed to the Republican party and will automatically work for any candidates that are not Republican. Can't blame Obama for being a Democrat. Just luck of the draw on that one.

http://cpusa.org/article/articleview/907/1/4/

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

REDWITCH....thanks for a nice and thoughtful reply. I wont say anymore...you have convinced yourself that there is no threat thus there is no threat....

....Sen Obama's MUSLIM advisor (DID YOU KNOW HE HAD ONE) resigned just last week because of his ties to a fundamental Islam group.

....Sen Obama has an official blogger. His name is Sam Graham=Felsen who is a contributor to the SOCIALIST VIEWPOINT and publicy says he believes in class warfare. He helped found the SOCIALIST WORKERS ASSOCIATION

....Your link was rather old to the Communist Pary of America...the following is recent and is part of the endorsement...,,,"Barack Obama is not a left candidate. This fact has seemingly surprised a number of progressive people who are bemoaning Obama’s “shift to the center.” (Right-wingers are happy to join them, suggesting Obama is a “flip-flopper.”) It’s sad that some who seek progressive change are missing the forest for the trees. But they will not dampen the wide and deep enthusiasm for blocking a third Bush term represented by John McCain, or for bringing Obama by a landslide into the White House with a large Democratic congressional majority"

....One of his co campaign managers is Jessie Jackson Jr who during he SC primary said that Sen Obama was "acting too white" ! Not racist though,huh?

These are REAL AND CURRENT and you said you had some interest in knowing. This combines with what has been his training should give us a clue. None made up...none from some email circulating around just simple hard facts.

Re: Do I have this straight?
 

So Bucco, I have a question. You seem to dig up the dirt (whether true or false) on Obama. Let's hear some on McCain. After all, you said you're not really a McCain supporter. Do you see any shortcomings there?