Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

75% of Americans believe the Iraq war is wrong and we should get out ASAP. The same feel that we were lied in to this war. They also believe Bush and his band of cronies should be held accountable for their misdeeds. The Bush family has been long time friends with the Saud and Bin Laden Families. The Bush clan has also befriended the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. They have received quite a bit of wealth from these sources over the years. George's grandfather almost got in trouble for helping finance Hitler's war machine. His father almost got in trouble for the increased CIA involvement in the drug trade while under his command. This family makes the Sopranos look like chiorboys. The Bushs and their friends from Arabia have brought this country to its knees. We will survive.....you can count on that!

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Listen I am going to try and keep a level head here. You do not call a sitting President a murderer. I don't care how much you hate him and his family. You can shout to the high heavens about how bad you think this Administration is, but I am telling you for your own good, do not call the President of the United states a murderer. 'nuff said.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

:agree: Johnny

What happened to patriotism Jim? Regardless of your personal opinion of our President, patriotism should be first and foremost. GWB has the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. He is doing it to the best of his ability whether we agree with him or not.

I AM NOT A GWB SUPPORTER...so don't get me wrong. However, I, as an American...would never ever refer to our President as a murderer.

You need to thank God you live in a country where there is freedom of speech. Many other places, you would be executed.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Sigh. I vowed I was staying out of political. That I would keep my mouth shut and my hands still but I just can't do it.

To me, patriorism is loving this country regardless of its warts. Patriorism is not blind or at least it shouldn't be. It seems like the Vietnam protests would have taught us that. LBJ was constantly called a murderer ("Hey, Hey, LBJ, how many boys did you kill today?")and those protesting felt justified in using those words. GWB can't be called a murderer but the wars can be compared -- neither of which had any justification for being fought other than idiotic politics. Sorry, but I don't agree.

I was taught to honor the office, not necessarily the man (the joys of military brathood and asking why you saluted someone you knew was a jerk).

I do not like GWB. I don't consider him a murderer but many do. They have that right. Just because the man is in office doesn't change his shortcomings, doesn't alter that lies were told to the American people and the governments of the world about Iraq and Saddam, that Iraq became a target and our fight agaisnt bin Laden and his ilk was put on a back burner.

The day we are stopped from saying what we think of those we've elected into a position of power is the day we have lost the right to call this nation a democracy.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Well then, go right out and burn a flag. You might as well go the whole nine yards. Think of how the enemy feels when they read some American fool calling a sitting President of the United States of America, a murderer. It makes them feel powerful and right against our men. They feel even the American people hate our troops if they are calling their leader a murderer. Wake up, berate him and call into question his actions concerning the war (liberation), but murderer is sinful. A big mistake was made, but Congress and The Senate made it, too. This man is not a sole assassin. Chavez called him "El Diablo" The Devil, and that broke my heart to hear our President who represents America, called a Devil by some left wing loon starving his people. God Bless America, whether you like the President or not.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Johnny, if one book written by one author is going to make that much of an impact on the rest of the world, I sincerely hope it is the Bible and not something written by Bugliosi. As I said, I don't think he is a murderer. I actively dislike GWB and I think we have no business in Iraq but that's an entirely different issue.

Our enemies feel right and powerful regardless what is said here about our President, especially in the Middle East. So long as we exist, so long as we have troops in the Middle East and so long as we support Israel, many of them will feel they have the right to kill our troops.

I want our troops out of Iraq. I want them searching for Bin Laden and his cronies in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I hurt every time I hear of one of boys or girls being injured or killed in Iraq. I will say thank you to each and every one that has served, no matter what war it was. Our troops deserve our love and respect. That doesn't mean our leaders do.

If someone chooses to write a book stating that our President and, yes, our Congress, is committing murder each and every time an American is killed in Iraq, that is that person's right. To get angry about it is your right. To basically threaten another, which was the basic tone of your post to jim, is beneath you.

To tell me to go burn a flag is beneath contempt. It goes more to the "how dare you!" You served in the military for this country. My father gave his entire life for this country -- it was a military injury that ultimately killed him at age 36. My brother went to Nam three times. Not because he believed in that war -- he didn't -- but because he felt he could save American GIs by being there. I've lost several friends in Nam, including the boy I thought I was going marry. I've held friends' hands as they got word their son and then their daughter were killed and injured in Iraq. Don't you dare tell me to go burn a flag because I defend someone's right to write a book and quote it here.

And, yes, God bless America. But I'll be damned if I'll bless our leaders who lied to us, who cheat us on a daily basis, who use their position to get rich on our backs. And I will fight for the right of anyone in this country to say what they think even if I totally disagree with it. That's what makes America so great -- our willingness to allow others to speak their mind, to fight for that right, to be there to help another have that right.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

George W. Bush is President of the United States, not St. George of the United States. Jim has every right to his post. I, personally, would not call Bush "The Devil" or a murderer. I would however call him a dimwit. I don't think he ever had the intelligence to be President and that is why I NEVER voted for him. The mistakes made by this presidency are overwhelming and cost many American lives. I alway liked the song "God Bless The Child that Got His Own." Bush rode in on his Daddy's coattails and now McCain is trying to do the same. Also, to blindly follow anyone, including the President of the United States, is simply ridiculous. The only one I blindly follow is Jesus.

I agree that the people of the Middle East are not pumped up by what we think. They have their own agenda. I find that the people that voted for Bush always say "History will tell." It's my belief that history will only validate this putrid presidency.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Why anyone would want to be President sometimes baffles me. All you get is folk Monday-morning quarterbacking everything, and there's a LOT of everything to jab.

Occasionally we should all take a look at the "org chart" of the US Government - just that section within the Executive Branch - 15 Departments and 93 Independent Agencies/Government Corporations. Within the Departments are another few dozen agencies as well. That's what the Chief Executive is responsible to oversee.

Time management, reliance on staff and experts, and sheer will is necessary to keep from losing control - and they all do at some point. Superman hasn't been on the ballot yet (and can't - he's an alien(lol)) No where else on this planet is a Chief Executive's decisions (certainly not in the corporate world) under so much scrutiny.

This is not necessarily the job for a purely "smart" person. I know many folk with multiple Ph.D.s who would crack after the first fortnight under the pressure. A "strong" person with hard-core management skills, willing to take on the sheer size of the Executive Branch and the myriad of competing interests - all demanding extensive face-time - is mandatory.

Information management, time management, skilled staff and experts, and a strong gut is what keeps the Executive Branch functional. Expecting a president to be expert at most of the functional areas, and fully cognizant of "everything that is going on" is ludicrous.

While its easy to horse-whip the captain of a ship for everything that happens within it, it's unrealistic as well. So, expecting a political Messiah to "make everything better" is naivete at its highest.

If you think it can be done, just look at the org chart(s) involving the Executive Branch, and come up with how you would time-manage it all so that you "knew everything going on..."

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Steve you are being to easy on them. They don't understand rationale. One more time. I'm not blindly following anyone. I respect the Office of the President. Is that easier for you to understand. You keep bringing up "talking points" and diatribes about GWB and his family and then you slip in McCain. All I said was don't call the President a murderer, it is offensive in many ways to decent Americans who DO respect the office.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

You obviously didn't lose a son or daughter. Well over 5 thousand have!!I know this gov't doesn't care or even count civilians or private contractors...
What do you call a leader who lies, lies lies to put a country into a war that has taken fathers, sons, daughters, mothers ...????
I lost a nephew . Tom was 19. Who should die at 19....?????
What do you call someone who sends thousands to die....????

I don't want to hear anymore :edit:.
I am MAD!

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Respecting the office has nothing to do with it. Respect is earned and you mean to say that no matter how many horrendous mistakes the president makes with such autraucities, you still repsect the office? Sounds somewhat like the 3rd reich with blind faith. How could you accept the fact that worst of all the innocent lives he has taken and for what? How about homeland security? That's where we should be with our military forces, protecting our homeland and certainly not getting our military killed and maimed where countries have been at war for hundreds of years.

The respect throughout the world for GWB, his office and our country tells it all; listen to the polls and the people. He's a loser and should be impeached for his actions. The role of his office brings all of the horrors of it all onto his shoulders; he's the sole one who must pay for the unethical, amorale autracities that exist. That is the sole responsibility of the office of the president. You respect the office, then you respect GWB; how could you and honestly say that you support the blunders? Office and President is one in the same; you want to just respect the office, not possible when you have such a loser sitting in that office.

Sorry Johnny, with all due respect to you, I just can not understand your rationale. My heart is so heavy with sadness over the loss and horrendous impairment of our innocent military serving their country.

barb1191

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

This was my original post:
"Listen I am going to try and keep a level head here. You do not call a sitting President a murderer. I don't care how much you hate him and his family. You can shout to the high heavens about how bad you think this Administration is, but I am telling you for your own good, do not call the President of the United states a murderer. 'nuff said."

Okay, this is it for me. One last try. Red said she wouldn't call the President a murderer in her reply, Chelsea said she wouldn't call the President a murderer in her reply. Barb are you calling the President a murderer, because if you check my original post above that was my only objection to junglejims post. If you think he is a murderer than go ahead and say it, here and now. That goes for mcelheny also.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Would you call Hitler a murderer?

You support the position, then you also support the person sitting in that seat.
I think I made my feelings clear enough without you having to put words in my mouth. There are so very many grieving with not only loss of loved ones, but those who returned as maimed and lifeless. They are entitled to call this leader whatever they choose. They most certainly are entitled to vent as they have surely earned it and paid the price one way or another.

When someone is responsible for the many casualties and deaths of innocent people in this war, in my book you can call him anything you want to and I certainly have no respect for the lame duck or his seat. When we elect a real leader, he/she will get my full respect and support. .....b

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Simple question Barb, no spin.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Barb

It isn't going to be a SHE...where have you been?

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Barb, great post. G. Bush may not have meant for all our soldiers to die in this unjust war, but he bears responsibility. His administration pushed the war, and he still won't back down.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Hey gal; I've been right here and was not speaking specifically in the present. Don't you believe that there will be a "she" in the future? I do. .....b

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

It seems to me no one will answer the question that started all of this. Everyone just wants to wail away at GWB. At least you prove my point. No one has put their money where their mouth is and charged George Bush as a murderer. If that is the case then my original objection to junglejims post holds true and all this back and forth was not necessary. You don't call a sitting President a murderer. It does not help our troops in the field and emboldens our enemies.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Johnny: Please validate what gives you the authority to tell anybody what they can and can not say?

Furthermore, my issue with you is not about calling the President a murderer. My issue with you is strictly not understanding your ability to respect the position of a person who has ruined that position. GWB has without a doubt not earned any respect and it happened while in the position of President. Thus, my friend, he's ruined both, i.e., his own reputation along with the position of President.

As for your insistance that I proclaim to you my feelings regarding the opinion of somebody else who called GWB a murderer, that, my man, is none of your business what my opinion is, and may I suggest that you get down off your high horse and refrain from telling people what they can say and not say.

barb

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

bump

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Barb I was nineteen when my President and Commander in Chief was assassinated. That had quite an impact on me and I will always remember waking to the news the President had been assassinated. I respected the office as a young serviceman and I respect the office now. I'm sure I am not alone on this, however I said my piece and made my point to my satisfaction.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Thank you Barb... well put.
Please pray for the families that are suffering so because this man does not care how many of them die. :'( It is not his daughters.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

There have been a lot of hard posts here. What the heck, here’s mine.

I have a lot of empathy for anyone who has lost a loved one due to military action. Grief is difficult on the best of days, and wanting to lash out and lay blame is human. Getting the notice that someone you have watched grow has died or been seriously wounded is horrific. What’s also horrific is to witness it happening around you to friends who have become closer than family (yes, that is possible) and carry those sights, sounds, smells and contact forever – you never shake it.

Wars are not popular, except to those who have no idea what is involved. During the Vietnam conflict (to me, “war” is the correct word, but “war” was never declared) the entire 15-year, 58,000+ killed, 300,000+ wounded involvement was the result solely of orders from the sitting Commander-in-Chief (first, Pres. Kennedy, then Pres. Johnson, then closed out by Pres. Nixon).

Sitting presidents are not impervious to the law. “High crimes and misdemeanors,” and ultra vires use of authority which results in death can qualify as such, still provides Congress with the reason to impeach a sitting president. It’s happened in our recent history, and the hue and cry when it last happened was that there was a Republican-led Congress out to lynch a Democratic President.

Throughout the Vietnam War, despite all of the protestors and activists, neither Pres. Kennedy nor President Johnson was impeached. I would like to think that if there was evidence of wrongdoing, that Congress would have stepped in. For the Iraq/Afghanistan War, especially with a Democratic-led Congress and a Republican President – and an election coming up – if there was ANY evidence of wrongdoing by the President, then Congress would be going through the impeachment process at breakneck speed, coupled with the press turning the event into a three-ring circus.

Since the Democrats chair and have the majority on all of the Congressional oversight committees, one would think that if a case could be made against Pres. Bush in any way, shape or manner, it would be done by now. Since Congress has deferred to pass judgment – as is their job to do since Congress has ALL of the information on the subject – then history will get the job to assess the Bush presidency.

I’m not a basher or fan of this administration. It’s time for a change, and the law of the land demands it after two terms.

I still grieve for several who were very close to me, and working in the DC area has been a blessing and curse, because I find too many times to be near The Wall. I just can’t pass it without stopping at certain panels and the combination of loss, rage and sorrow really tests my faith sometimes. It would be simple to just blame Pres. Kennedy (he got us into Vietnam) and Pres. Johnson (he kept us there) as heartless swine, but that's too easy and convenient and just wrong.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

Principle can cut both ways on any given issue. The principle inherent in the concept of the moral responsibility of the American people to question their leadership at all times, but especially when matters of war are at stake, is as valid for the pro as it is the con.

The validity of this principle is not judged on the level of militancy of the presidential action in question, but rather its viability as judged by the values and ideals of the American people. While the diversity of the United States dictates that there will be a divergence of consensus when it comes to individual values and ideals, the collective ought to agree that the foundation upon which all American values and ideals should be judged is the U.S. Constitution, setting forth as it does a framework of law which unites us all. To hold the Constitution up as a basis upon which to criticize the actions of any given president is perhaps the most patriotic act an American can engage in. As Theodore Roosevelt himself noted, “No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man’s permission when we ask him to obey it. To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but it is morally treasonable to the American public.”

Constitutional Law Professor Jonathan Turley says there are numerous crimes for which Bush could easily be impeached, the President’s greatest ally has been the Democratic Congress who have skirted their constitutional duties and consistently given him a pass rather than practice any oversight. The fact is, that this is not supposed to happen the way it’s happened in the last seven years. The framers, I think, would have been astonished by the absolute passivity, if not the collusion of the Democrats in protecting President Bush from impeachment. I mean, they created a system that was essentially idiot-proof, and God knows we’ve put that to the test in the past few years, but I don’t think they anticipated that so many members of the opposition would stand quietly in the face of clear presidential crimes.”

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

What's the source for these paragraphs? If you wrote it, sorry. The close quote at the end of the last paragraph threw me.

Re: Does anyone really think Bush is doing a good job?
 

I agree that if thre is one area of "progress" over the past 2 1/2 centuries, we seem to be making "better idiots."

You pose great questions to the members of the opposition, and their answers - or ability to evade answering - is of interest to us all. The norm is for any Article of Impeachment presented by a House member to be first reviewed by the House Judiciary Committee.

The current chair of the Judiciary Committee is the Hon. John Conyers, Jr. (D) Michigan, 14th. The remaining Democratics members (22 out of 38 total) are: Hon. Berman, (D) California, 28th; Hon. Boucher, (D) Virginia, 9th; Hon. Nadler, (D) New York, 8th; Hon. Scott,
(D) Virginia, 3rd; Hon. Watt, (D) North Carolina, 12th; Hon. Lofgren, (D) California, 16th; Hon. Jackson Lee, (D) Texas, 18th; Hon. Waters, (D) California, 35th; Hon. Delahunt, (D) Massachusetts, 10th; Hon. Wexler, (D) Florida, 19th; Hon. Sánchez, (D) California, 39th; Hon. Cohen, (D) Tennessee, 9th; Hon. Johnson, (D) Georgia, 4th; Hon. Sutton, (D) Ohio, 13th; Hon. Gutierrez, (D) Illinois, 4th; Hon. Sherman, (D) California, 27; Hon. Baldwin, (D) Wisconsin, 2nd; Hon. Weiner, (D) New York, 9th; Hon. Schiff, (D) California, 29th; Hon. Davis, (D) Alabama , 7th; Hon. Wasserman Schultz, (D) Florida, 20th; and Hon. Ellison, (D) Minnesota, 5th.

So, is this another of the "great conspiracies" or just political rhetoric? If I was still a Democrat (chased away by the DNC after the FL primary debacle), I'd want to know why all the talk from the Dems and yet no action to back it up????