No...the NT does NOT contain "original" writings by ANYONE who "knew Jesus". There is NOT ONE piece of writing that dates back to the time of Jesus that talks about him...not one. NO original documents. You can SAY that your Bible that has changed languages and been rewritten is "direct" from the author...but it isn't. Those books are ALL considered anonymous because they've been rewritten so much.

They could be considered the product of failed memory...basically, they're the same story...but MANY details don't match.

Jim Jones had a WHOLE LOT of martyrs who "died for the cause"...Heaven's Gate...people died for their beliefs...Waco...the list goes on. Jesus is NOT unique in that respect.

NOBODY saw him rise from the dead. Some SAID they saw him after...so? Paul said a LOT of stuff he knew nothing about...he's what? 1/4? 1/3 of the NT writings?

Trust me Carl...you know not where you tread...I had a lot of time on my hands and I did a LOT of reading. Wondering WHAT am I missing? These people believe SO passionately...why don't I see what they see? I realized...the truth is...it's all made up bullsh!t...every word of it. Christianity isn't the ONLY religion out there you know. Others have passionate believers too. And their religions sometimes make a lot more sense.

You REALLY think that God talked to people way back when but doesn't any more? It's been 2,000 years without a peep. How come? The planet is FAR worse off now than then. In your NT Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Where is he? He's REALLY late. Or do they walk among us?

How would it change my attitude? They'd stop leeching? Start producing? Stop being 10X more violent? Stop destroying EVERY school? Stop destroying EVERY neighborhood? Stop destroying towns and cities? That's ALL they have to do...change their "character" to match ours. Act like civilized human beings instead of wild animals.

When MLK Blvd becomes JUST LIKE Main Street at LSL...THEN I will change my attitude. Until then, they need to be kept away...locked up in their inner city ghettos...confined to MLK Blvd and it's surroundings.

I'm SO glad EVERY black city/town area has that street...the "no-go" zone. Where NOT to book your hotel. Want to know what a neighborhood is like...determine it's distance from MLK Blvd.

Racism, Trump & Evangelicals
 

So, where did you serve time ?
Now it all makes sense...

Denounce the messenger when you CAN'T denounce the message...

Debate me or are you going to roll over and post pictures of your mother again?

Show me an original text written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Show me the original text written by Jesus. That one should be easy...right? God interrupts his busy "spying on people schedule"...to come all the way down here to "straighten people up". But he forgets to write ANYTHING down? He doesn't "have a girl" taking notes for the biography? Did God think this through? How come he hasn't come back as scheduled?

Show me ANY text...by ANY author at the time of Jesus that mentions him.

Show me ANY record at all of Jesus that was made at the time of Jesus.

Nobody KNOWS where he was born...lived...and died. There are guesses, but that is all they are.

My personal opinion is that Paul made up Christianity using a fictional "Jesus". Much like Muhammad invented Islam. Some people can be quite motivating. Look at the martyrs who have died following Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, Waco, Ruby Ridge...they ALL thought THEY were right too.

Farming...lots of free time between a crazy rush. When all your friends believe, it makes you wonder.

I have nothing against the "church" concept...neighbors getting together, socializing, helping each other...it's the ruse to get them there that I don't like. But, how else could you get them there...motivate them to attend. Heaven and hell are quite the motivating concept if you can get to the people (infants) early enough, before they have the skills to question.

The three big religions...Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all related. All come from the old Jewish stories. And those stories came from stories that are even older.

The great flood...is the story of the end of the last ice age and the oceans rising 400ft. The Black Sea flooded quickly when the land at Istanbul gave way and was over-topped some say the Mediterranean filled quickly. People lived along the coasts like they do now. The coasts flooded...more and more...every year...it was the great flood. It was passed down orally until writing and then appears as "tales" because nobody could prove it ever happened and there was no writing to keep records. The great flood IS a fact in the Bible...but NOT how the Bible tells it.

I could go on and on...

Leesburg
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Farmer Don
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8f69f42dc7.jpg

Psalm 14:1
 

Carl in Tampa


.

Racism, Trump & Evangelicals
 

Josephus told of Jesus in his writings.

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

"Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"[12] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity."

WHEN did he write it? 60 years after Jesus died? It WASN'T during the time of Jesus...it was MANY years later.

"Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD"

He was a Jew, not a Christian. He had no skin in the game. He was also a citizen of Rome.

The Mass was in Latin because Latin was the universal language until English took over. The Catholic Missal had the Latin on one side of the page and across was the local language. So yes, you could follow the Mass.

And he wrote it 60 years later. It's like you writing NOW about something that happened in 1957...how accurate is it going to be? And besides...

"Josephus wrote all of his surviving works after his establishment in Rome (c. AD 71) under the patronage of the Flavian Emperor Vespasian. As is common with ancient texts, however, there are no surviving extant manuscripts of Josephus' works that can be dated before the 11th century, and the oldest of these are all Greek minuscules, copied by Christian monks.[59] (Jews did not preserve the writings of Josephus either because they considered him to be a traitor"

"Because manuscript transmission was done by hand-copying, typically by monastic scribes, almost all ancient texts have been subject to both accidental and deliberate alterations, emendations (called interpolation) or elisions. Both the lack of any original corroborating manuscript source outside the Christian tradition as well as the practice of Christian interpolation has led to the scholarly debate regarding the authenticity of Josephus' references to Jesus in his work."

"Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship"

It stayed in Latin a LOT longer than it had to.

You're quibbling over details...when the WHOLE thing is a lie. They lied in Latin, they lied in English...so what?

Got it now.
 

Wiotte seems to have struck a nerve. His question was not answered.

------------------------

I get it now. You don't like the message, so you search for reasons to deny its authenticity.

Of course you know that the Gospel of John, the letters of Peter, the letters of Jesus' brothers, etc. are contemporaneous writings of eyewitnesses to the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, and at the very least the Gospel of Mark was based upon accounts told to him by the Apostle Peter.

But, you seek to delegitimize all that because the original documents were handled so much in being passed from church to church that they were were worn out, and copies had to be produced. So............the "original" documents are gone. We have copies, and copies of copies. No one denies this.

Realizing that you are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of faith, I wouldn't even bother to respond to your specious arguments if it weren't for the fact that I don't want other readers to be taken in by your fallacious position.

Textual scholarship (Westcott - Hort Greek scholars), testimony of the early church fathers about the authenticity of the New Testament books (by quoting them), and establishment of a Biblical canon by church councils, all served to have us arrive at the Bible we have today.

Don't bother to shout again that we don't have any "original" written texts. I've handled that.


Carl in Tampa

.

Listen...if "God" comes to earth to lay down the law...he's going to write it down. Jesus never wrote ANYTHING.

You can believe your religion invented by Paul...just like the Muslims believe the religion invented by Muhammad. Be my guest.

It's funny...there's NOTHING to back up ANYTHING. No 10 Commandments, no Chalice, no Ark of the Covenant, NO writings from Jesus...NOTHING...WTF??? It's ALL hearsay...and FAITH...that the man collecting 10% isn't lying to you.

It's been pushed on you since you were infants. "Sunday School" was propaganda school. They feed these VERY young kids "stories" and they swallow it hook line and sinker. Most NEVER shake it and realize how fake it all is.

How can I expect you to see this ruse when you can't even see the other big lie...racial equality. IF you were in law enforcement and actually got out into the "sh!t"...you KNOW what I'm talking about. Blacks are NOT the same as white people. They DON'T think the same, they DON'T act the same. We can go down to MLK Blvd and you can see for yourself just how different the 99% are.

If you don't want people talking sh!t about your religion...don't bring it up.

There are as many Muslims as there are Christians...why do you think YOU are right and they are wrong? You DO know they think the same about you...YOU are wrong and they are right. You're BOTH wrong.

"To begin, atheism involves a logical fallacy known as a universal negative. Simply stated, a person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say "there is no God" from his own pool of knowledge. Only someone capable of being in all places at the same time — with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe — can make such a statement based on the facts. In other words, a person would have to be God to say there is no God. Hence, the assertion is logically indefensible."

This makes sense Don

The Eleventh Commandment
 

You don't get to set the rules on how God behaves when he becomes incarnate on Earth. You are also not the first to make that mistake.

Your reliance on the need for ancient documents to bolster your belief is naive and touching. Perhaps you could produce the cup from which Socrates drank the hemlock. Or, for that matter, any original document that he wrote. Can't? Oh, then by your logic there was no Socrates.

Did the Seven Wonders of the World exist? Really? Where? We see the pyramids, but have no idea where the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were located. Except, maybe somewhere in Babylon, of course.

Was there really a great poet and play writer named Shakespeare, or was all of that work written by Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? Prove your answer.

Your problem continues to be a demand for proof when Christianity is based upon faith.

And, as I have already observed. You are not seeking Truth, but rather a way to reject Christian teachings.


Carl in Tampa

.

Oh please...YOU are the one claiming something exists...prove it. I've heard there are geese who lay golden eggs...can you PROVE they don't exist?

YOUR claim is logically indefensible. You CAN'T prove something doesn't exist...but that's NOT my job...it's YOUR JOB to PROVE it does...otherwise it's just a story...like MANY others.

I'm NOT claiming there WAS a Socrates/Jesus...YOU are.

I don't have to prove anything...I'm NOT making the claim...YOU are. YOU prove Shakespeare existed if you claim he did. Many believe "Shakespeare WAS more than one persons writings. Same with Homer.

was shakespeare real - Google Search

YOUR problem is you accept faith with no proof.

"You don't get to set the rules on how God behaves when he becomes incarnate on Earth."

Maybe not...but I sure as hell CAN tell "God" what he did wrong. You'd think an all powerful. all knowing "God" would have thought it through a little better and maybe left a few writings...SOME real hard evidence he was here...his message...in a concrete form so we'd never forget. Why not? God WANTED people to have to remember orally? Make their own interpretation?

Do you think Islam is "wrong"? Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Which Christian sect has it right?

Catholic Church - 1.285 billion.
Protestantism - 800 million.
Eastern Orthodoxy - 270 million.
Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million.
Anglicanism - 85 million.
Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 35 million.
Independent Catholicism - 18 million.

I posit...NONE of them. YOU go ahead and PROVE one of them IS correct.

The onus is on YOU to PROVE what you believe in is REAL. It's NOT up to me to disprove it.

I can't believe that in 2017 there are people who believe in a "God" who created the universe, created life, including us...who CARES what each and every one of us is doing/thinking at all times...and is judging us to determine whether we deserve heaven or hell. IF he knows EVERYTHING...he knew the answer BEFORE we were born.

The biggest question is...where did "God" come from? The most powerful, smartest thing even beyond the universe...just happened? Was always there?

I don't think so...

Let me comment on your picture...do you notice the difference? I do. The WHITE guy is a VOLUNTEER...the black guy...is WORKING...he's getting PAID to do it. White people VOLUNTEER...a LOT...blacks...hardly EVER. There's the difference.

Menendez, McCain, Ginsberg, Midterms!!!

Liberals keep talking nonsense as if voters will fall for it, keep it up!

The Gospel of "John" was written years after the death of Jesus. Peter never met Jesus and lived hundreds of miles from Jerusalem. So these are the very least third hand reports. I don't doubt that a messianistic historical figure lived at the time (whatever his name was) but to give the appearance of quoting him word for word and then basing an entire belief system on those sayings without even questioning their validity, is...foolish.

There were MANY "prophets" running around at the time.

I believe that Paul created a amalgam...a "best of" to use to created HIS version of "Christianity". The Jews in power didn't buy that ANY of the prophets were "the one".

IF "God" went through all that trouble...a stupid thing really if you think about it...to manifest himself in our form and "teach us"...he did a **** poor job of it.

And WHY? Why bother with bacteria? That IS what we are to a being like that...below bacteria. Do you care what each individual bacterium does/thinks/treats his neighbor? Then why would God care about us?

I don't blame you...you were indoctrinated, brainwashed at an early age. I blame those who would extract a 10% tithe from everyone they can.

Of course, "you" is in the broad, general sense. You mellin are aware of the scam.

Singing on the Black Keys
 

Oh, my friend, you have clearly failed to understand what I told you previously. I did not set out to convince you of anything, so I have no obligation to prove anything.

In fact, most of my remarks have been directed toward other readers who might be easily mislead by your specious reasoning. In fact, I am confident that until I directed your attention towards Socrates, you had never given a thought to doubting that he once lived.

For those other readers, here is a quick review of some evidences of the transforming power of God's love.

1. The Apostle Paul - Prior to his conversion after being stricken blind while on the road to Damascus, Paul had consented to the stoning of Christians. His mission in Damascus was to arrest Christians and take them to Jerusalem for judgement. His entire life changed after encountering Jesus, and he became the most active missionary for Christianity in the Bible.

2. The Twelve Apostles - All of the Apostles, including the one chosen to replace Judas, had witnessed the risen Jesus, and would die as martyrs (except John) rather than renounce him. John died in exile on the Isle of Patmos, after writing the Gospel of John, the Johannine letters, and Revelation.

3. John Newton - Newton went to sea at age 11 under his father, a British sea captain. Newton was a vile, obscene, dishonest man, who rose through the ranks to become a sea captain himself. He was Captain of a slave ship, transporting slaves from Africa to the Caribbean British Colonies.

After his conversion to Christianity, Newton continued at sea for a while, apparently unfeeling towards the slaves. Finally, after an illness, he gave up the sea. Several years later he was accepted into the Anglican priesthood. His revulsion towards the slave trade was finally complete and he worked with other English abolitionists to pass the laws that ended the slave trade throughout the British Empire.

He is the author of the song "Amazing Grace."

I'm sure Don won't be able to stand watching this video. The rest of you might find it illuminating and interesting. It explains the title of this post.

Wintley Phipps Sings Amazing Grace at Carnegie Hall - YouTube on Vimeo


Carl in Tampa


.

Constantine's mother, at the age of 80 or so, visited Jerusalem for the first time. She was able to walk just so far with her physical limitations, and every time she was getting tired and needed to rest, there was yet another spot where Jesus supposedly did something or other, which she could then sit and admire. A friend who visited told me she toured Paul's mother's house. When I snorted, she said "Oh, they kept good records." Now the United States of America keeps pretty good records, but I defy you to find Paul Revere's mother's house, and we're talking two hundred years versus two thousand years. In other words, tourists have always been pretty good marks. So yes, a book which begins with two incestuous nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake is not my idea of a foundation for a serious religion.

Awesome!! :1rotfl:


:BigApplause:

Thank you, Carl, for the link to that video.......goosebumps from beginning to end. And thank you for being a light amongst a lot of darkness on this forum.

Hey for us agnostic, are you guys playing a video game?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

After re-read this entire thread I am left with these thoughts.

Men cannot accurately record today's news and its readers all walk away with different interpretations. And yet here we are debating the ancient history, the Bible, etc and yet we know that corrupt men corrupt trying to retain history on their side

And so history provides their version of the story (Spartans-Athenians, Calvary-Indians Protestants-Catholics Confederate-Union Armies)

The ubiquitous questions on every human beings mind are "who made us" what is our purpose" and the like
And for every philosophical question that creates a vacuum someone is there to fill it.

Religion is in my view good. What is bad are those who would distort religion for their selfish purposes.

I did not need anyone to tell me I am spiritual, Its instinctive. i alwyas knew it and felt it

I did not need anyone to tell me to reject homosexuality. It was instinctive and in my view unnatural.

I did not need anyone to point out that people different than me are both good and bad, just like people like me.

I did not need anyone to tell me that some of the teachings by my church didn't fit. and as a side bar was sorry they made the decision to forego the mass in Latin. I was an altar boy and learned the prayers in Latin. what a beautiful language

I viewed the teachings of the Bible more as important lessons in human behaviors and admonitions. I'll leave the divinity issues, etc to more scholarly people.

People can argue to and fro but if every human being followed the 10 Commandments not based on their divinity but simply their instruction this would be a much better world.

Personal Best Regards:

They don't KNOW where Jesus was born, where he grew up, where he was crucified, where he was buried...NOTHING. Why didn't "God" make sure we'd remember? Why didn't "God" write ANYTHING down? WTF? "God" thought "orally" would be good enough? Like I said before..."God's" plan wasn't planned/executed very well. Maybe OUR "God" was the receiver of affirmative action, a quota...he wasn't REALLY qualified to plan/make a universe and got the slot because of a disability? His race? Her sex?

And WHAT was their "major sin"? Eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE...? "God" wanted them ignorant to control?

No...he's simply been fooled...like a lot of others have too.

Exactly...there is NO WAY that it was all recorded from oral stories 50+ years later accurately. It's propaganda...made up...to collect a 10% tithe.

Remember...the word is "His-Story". It's not "Factstory".

Yes they are...and they'll gladly accept a 10% tithe for their "answers".

Islam is "good"? For whom? Not me. Not anyone I know. Or...did you mean just Christianity?

Yes...but some "races" have MORE "bad people" than others. Compare blacks and whites...compare how they live, how they act, how they treat others. I'd rather live with whites thank you. I've NEVER seen/heard of a "black villages" or anywhere CLOSELY comparable...have you? If not, HOW can you say they are equal? It's like calling a master carpenter and a ditch digger "equal". One can create works of utility and beauty...one can't. They are hardly equal and shouldn't be considered equal. If you were forced onto a deserted island...which would you take? So, they are NOT "equal"...are they? One has far more value than the other. White people are carpenters...blacks ditch diggers.

Well then...practice relativism...start your OWN sect...that AGREES with YOUR thoughts. You won't be alone...there are over 5,000 Christian sects to choose from...or, as I said, you can always start your own. Because YOU know "God's mind", what he REALLY meant....right? THAT part of the Bible is allegory...not meant to be taken literally?

But people take it literally as God's word. It's not? Is what's in the Bible is just a "suggestion"?

Which ones? The very FIRST commandment is..."I'm the ONLY "God" have NONE but me". Should THAT really be FIRST? Really? Second...is "No images", no "idols"? Third is "don't take "God's" name in vain. Fourth, Keep the "Sabbath" day holy. The top four "commandments" are all about him. Why not START with the others...no murder, no adultery, honor parents...etc? Your "God" seems to be "all about me".

I had hope for Carl until I read all his religious bullsh!t. He's as brainwashed as the rest.

Faith does not require proof or evidence.

If I am wrong and you are right, I have lost nothing by believing.

If I am right and you are wrong, YOU have lost your soul and will pay not only for your lack of faith but your denying of the one and only GOD.

I guess that means that I have insurance.

That may seem simple, but I can live with that a lot better than you can live with your arrogance that gives you absolutely NO hope. A socialist that gives the government his faith becomes a communist. All of those man and government based ideologies have been tried and failed, but a system based on deity faith has survived and will survive until man is finally destroyed by his own arrogance. Self proclaimed scholars have always attempted to argue the fallacy of a Bible based faith, but in the end all of them lose. I wonder why it is so important for a few to win an argument to destroy another's faith. Is it because they feel doomed and wish company? Are they just miserable people that wish ill of others? Perhaps there is an evil in the world and the idea that "the devil made me do it" is not so ridiculous, and those naysayers are instruments of that evil?

Think about this; there is evidence of divine design in all of nature, but there is NO evidence that the existence of GOD is a lie. Even the big bang theory requires intelligent design.

Like I said above, my faith costs me nothing and may(WILL) gain me eternity. A lack of faith gains you nothing, even if you are right (and you aren't).

By the way, you argue small points as documented in the Bible attempting to destroy what you believe is faith. My faith does not require the Bible. I use it as a reference to my form of faith. Destroy the Bible and I will still believe. But, I have no fear of anyone destroying the Bible. It's been around for a lot longer than any human alive and it will still be a best seller when you are gone.

And I applaud you for your faith. It gives comfort to millions. Most of us don't object to a faith of any kind, what we object to is the use faith is sometimes put to...that is, often used to justify wars, to justify fear of the "other", to justify political aims, and to justify taking money from people who cannot afford it. This happens in every faith, I'm sure. Unscrupulous people are everywhere. So a little skepticism is not a bad thing. When "faith" is used to oppress another who is not of the same faith, then that is not serving anyone well.

You're right...faith requires NO evidence...that's why it's so easy to keep believing even after you've grown enough to understand its falsity. They "program" you as infants when you have no "defense"...you learn to "believe in God" as naturally as you begin to speak and walk...because it's ALL you know/are taught. Are you given a choice at birth? Christian, Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist? No...you become what your parents were. Religion is region based...depending on where you live...generally...determines your religion. It's an "accident of birth" you're a Muslim living in the ME...or an Indian Buddhist.

Sure you've lost something...your sovereignty...YOUR self determination. Did you "live a certain way" because your religion expected it? Then you paid a price. If you haven't "paid a price", then you're religious in name only and YOU are going to hell.

Say's YOU. There are another 5 billion people on the planet who disagree with Christianity. What makes you think you are right and everyone else is wrong? Arrogance?

NO...it means you THINK you have insurance. Which of the relativistic 5,000 sects are you a member of? Are you SURE you picked the right one? Do you obey ALL of God's laws? I doubt it...I doubt you even KNOW all of God's laws...it goes beyond the 10 Commandments.

What "hope"...that the afterlife will be better than here? I make HERE my heaven...I try to make HERE better.

So...THAT'S your "hope"? That man destroys himself through arrogance? You're probably right...but is it something to hope for?

Really? Who told you that? One of your religious leaders? What do you THINK they are going to tell you? The Bible does describe some true historical events...it's the WHY that is full of lies.

Oh...I don't know...maybe to keep you from living under delusion? HOW MANY delusions do you want? Religion, racial equality, gender equality...they're ALL delusions. The government is there to "help you" is another delusion. The medical industry wants to cure you...yet another.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn't "intelligent design". I don't know where it all began...why it all began...and I can live with that. I don't need to believe 5,000 year old myths conjured up by cavemen to explain things. And please explain this: The universe MUST have been created by intelligent design, it's too marvelous and complicated to have "just happened". And yet...you have NO problem believing your "Creator God" was ALWAYS there...or "just happened". It's circular reasoning and it's a dead end. I think it's better to just admit...I don't know...and keep looking for the real answers.

Your faith costs...your freedom...my lack of it gives me freedom.

Destroy the Bible and what is left to believe? Not Christianity. Didn't the NT "destroy" the OT? It's a completely different set of "values" and often contradicts the OT God. It's the ultimate relativism of the Jewish faith. Same with Islam...the same "God", completely different interpretation this one sticking more with the vengeful, punishing God. Would Jesus DESTROY entire cities? Destroy humanity with an all encompassing flood? And WHY a flood? why not leave everything and just make the "wicked" people disappear? God controls the weather, but can't make people disappear? A "rapture" sending them to hell? I mean after the flood, the plants are all gone too...what did everyone eat? Or is it impolite to question someone's "faith"?

Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide.
 

I have a couple of brief reflections on what you have concluded. Brevity is not easy for me, but I shall try.

1. Your thoughts on the accuracy of history reminded me of the old saying that "History is written by the victors." In the case of Christianity, Christian history was written by those who endured. They endured a vicious attempt by the Roman Empire to wipe them out, to include destroying records that they existed and by killing their adherents.

But the Romans were unsuccessful, as witnessed by the Roman Catacombs, filled with the remains of Christian dead, and remaining fragments of different books of the Bible, discovered centuries later in Christian monasteries, and of course the Muratorian fragment.

The very existence of Christians, then and now, is proof that Jesus lived, died, and rose to live again. The Apostles, and later Christian martyrs would not have died to further a cause that they knew was false, if they could be spared by simply saying a word of denial of Jesus.

2. You may know that there was a long period of time when the accuracy of accounts in the Bible were doubted because there was no physical "proof." But in the 1930s and later, archaeological digs and discoveries unearthed certain things which were found to be just as described in the Bible.

3. As a Baptist, with no dog in the fight, I think it was a mistake to allow Mass in the local language, abandoning Latin. The reason is simple. First off, it is not difficult to learn the relatively few Latin phrases in the Mass, and their meaning. I did so just because I sometimes went to Mass. In New Orleans it seemed that every politician who got elected to office wanted to hold a special Mass, and I was invited.

The reason I think Latin should have been retained is because in my travels around the world, my (Irish) Catholic companions had no problem going to Mass, and understanding it in Latin, although they didn't know a word in the local language. Having it in Latin emphasized the Global reach of the Catholic Church.

4. It is a shame that so many people who have lost interest in the denomination in which they were raised are reluctant to try a little visit to a local Southern Baptist Church. In the main, the churches contain down-to-earth, friendly people who are a far cry from the stereotypes often depicted by unfriendly critics.

And, if you sit down for a conversation with a Southern Baptist pastor, you will find that the core position of the church is similar to that articulated by Martin Luther so many years ago; in Latin - Sola Scriptura. What Does Sola Scriptura Mean?

The other position, the one that got Martin Luther in the most hot water, was Sola Fide. Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement. You are not required to do "works" to achieve Salvation. (No Confession; no Hail Mary; no acts of contrition; etc.)

But............. you also cannot achieve Salvation without Faith in Jesus as the provider of that Salvation. That is key.

Well...........Brevity got lost somewhere along the way.


Carl in Tampa


.

Great post!

It's the rantings of the brainwashed.

"I believe"...so it's true?

You are right on many accounts. That's why many of us do not put our faith so much in a religion per se, as in a relationship. I practiced a religion my whole life but never really "knew" God. It wasn't until I started studying the bible that I realized the difference between religion and having a relationship. Just like a person who calls himself a Christian is not a perfect person, religions created by man will not be perfect either. It is just a means to practice what we believe with other like minded people and to enjoy fellowship and worship God communally.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to you because I find it difficult to explain it myself, but I understand your skepticism. We have all been where you are at one point or another in our lives. It's something you have to come to yourself through seeking, if one desires.

For we live by faith, not by sight.
 

You don't believe...........so it's not true?

I suspect that you find our Faith much more disturbing than we find your disbelief. . . . chilout


Carl in Tampa

As you get older and "wiser"...you figure out that the religion you were raised on is just a bunch of bullsh!t...but you can't shake the premise of "God".

Found your own "religion" make it 5,001 different sects with different "interpretations" of a book of fictional stories.

Backwards again...

It's not true...so I don't believe.

I find your faith irrational.

What "disturbs" me is the extent of how right Barnum was...there are millions of suckers born every day...especially if you can get to them when they're vulnerable infants. What "disturbs" me is how strong conditioning done on infants is and how long it lasts. What "disturbs" me is that they use these same techniques on our children in school. They frame it in the context "Everybody feels the same way, you should too". It's the way the "news" is presented too.

We are lied to constantly, from every source. It's no wonder the incidence of psychiatric illness...and need for "calming" drugs...and of course...the need for a "God", a "spirit" to guide us.

I asked this of Carl before and he didn't answer for whatever reason so here it is again.

If you've never had it, how does a person acquire faith ? What if it isn't gifted to you ? And how would you know if it were gifted or know if it wasn't ?

This is such a great set of questions and I'm not sure I'm the most qualified to answer, but I'll give it a shot. It is gifted to anyone who desires it. God doesn't pick and choose, but he allows you to choose - do you want the gift of faith or not? It's a personal choice and you have to make that decision.

The only way I really know how to answer your question is by my own story. As I said, I grew up in the church and followed it quite faithfully when I was young, just like Don B said. But here's where his premise goes wrong, because I apparently wasn't brainwashed. There came a point in my life - in my 20's and 30's - where I felt I didn't need God, and by anyone looking in from the outside, it didn't seem that I did. I was successful in my chosen career, had a husband and family that was healthy and doing well on all accounts, etc. The problem was when I got older, in my 40's, I realized something was missing, like a hole in my heart or a broken chain that was missing a link. Everything else seemed so good but that feeling drove me to begin to seek. I started going to a bible study which at that time was way over my head, so when I sat down to do my lesson I prayed "God, if you're there and you want me to understand this, then you're going to have to help me". Apparently that was the knock on the door that he was waiting for, because from that point on, as they say, my eyes and ears were open to understand. It really transcends our human ability......it is deeply spiritual at that point.

You ask, how would I know whether I have the gift? Because first, what I said above - I began to understand things that before were totally beyond my comprehension. My life changed drastically - how I felt, how I thought, and how I acted. Others noticed too - a sort of calmness, deeper in my thinking, and greater compassion for others. And of course I no longer felt that hole or missing link anymore. I felt like my life was more complete, fuller and richer in every way. Most likely it is not the same for everyone, because as I said it is very personal, but you know when you got it.

Matthew 7:7-8King James Version (KJV)

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

It's all in that book, but you have to want it for yourself. Hope this helps to answer some of your questions. By the way, there is a really good nondenominational bible study group called Community Bible Study. There is a women's group in The Villages, but I think there is a men's group also, either in The Villages or Ocala, not sure which. You can look it up online at their website if interested. No previous experience needed to join and usually starts up each year right about now.

We are in agreement and may perhaps place a different emphasis on some of the historic and/or philosophical understandings?

My belief comes deep within my natural instincts. I leave the politics of religion to more scholarly people. I do so because scholars seem to spend more time telling people what is not rather than were we all come together on a belief in one God.

People seem to attend a service that fits their preferred choice of expressing faith. Some choose quiet reflection such as the Catholic Church of old and while not perfect it was better for them than its contemporary folk style

There were/are good Pope's and bad Pope's. Just as there were/are good Baptist pastors and bad Baptist pastors. I loved Pope John Paul II but dislike Pope Francis.

I recently saw an independent film about the Queen of Sweden ,Queen Christina born/died 1626-1689, reigned 1632-1654. She had great interests in religion, philosophy, mathematics, alchemy. She attracts many scientist to Stockholm

Before her reign and during her reign Sweden (Lutheran) was at war with nations (Catholic).

Christina rejected Lutheran's teachings, abdicated her throne, converted to Catholicism and went to Rome to serve the Pope. she is buried in the Vatican Grotto

It appears that trigger warnings and microaggressions existed even back then:D

Personal Best Regards:

.......and did He also create homosexuality and homosexuals? If so, was that a mistake by the faultless and perfect deity? If not, then what creates homosexuals? Does He love homosexuals as much as He loves you? Is every spectrum of society between the alpha and omega, including homosexuals? In His Holy Word, does He give you and others like you the right to judge homosexuals? Can homosexuals be Christian brothers and sisters with you? Can homosexuals go to Heaven? Do you judge homosexuals by the content of their character, or by some other standard? Has He shared these standards of your judgemental ism with you personally?

I have faith in HIS word, and it says he loves all people. If you want to know how he feels about homosexuals, read the Bible. If you don't believe in it, then why bother asking the question? Remember the part where it says God hates the sin but loves the sinner? Paraphrased of course. Whose judging besides the liberals? Just because someone does not condone a practice does not mean they can't tolerate it. There are radicals in any religion.