They don't KNOW where Jesus was born, where he grew up, where he was crucified, where he was buried...NOTHING. Why didn't "God" make sure we'd remember? Why didn't "God" write ANYTHING down? WTF? "God" thought "orally" would be good enough? Like I said before..."God's" plan wasn't planned/executed very well. Maybe OUR "God" was the receiver of affirmative action, a quota...he wasn't REALLY qualified to plan/make a universe and got the slot because of a disability? His race? Her sex?

And WHAT was their "major sin"? Eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE...? "God" wanted them ignorant to control?

No...he's simply been fooled...like a lot of others have too.

Exactly...there is NO WAY that it was all recorded from oral stories 50+ years later accurately. It's propaganda...made up...to collect a 10% tithe.

Remember...the word is "His-Story". It's not "Factstory".

Yes they are...and they'll gladly accept a 10% tithe for their "answers".

Islam is "good"? For whom? Not me. Not anyone I know. Or...did you mean just Christianity?

Yes...but some "races" have MORE "bad people" than others. Compare blacks and whites...compare how they live, how they act, how they treat others. I'd rather live with whites thank you. I've NEVER seen/heard of a "black villages" or anywhere CLOSELY comparable...have you? If not, HOW can you say they are equal? It's like calling a master carpenter and a ditch digger "equal". One can create works of utility and beauty...one can't. They are hardly equal and shouldn't be considered equal. If you were forced onto a deserted island...which would you take? So, they are NOT "equal"...are they? One has far more value than the other. White people are carpenters...blacks ditch diggers.

Well then...practice relativism...start your OWN sect...that AGREES with YOUR thoughts. You won't be alone...there are over 5,000 Christian sects to choose from...or, as I said, you can always start your own. Because YOU know "God's mind", what he REALLY meant....right? THAT part of the Bible is allegory...not meant to be taken literally?

But people take it literally as God's word. It's not? Is what's in the Bible is just a "suggestion"?

Which ones? The very FIRST commandment is..."I'm the ONLY "God" have NONE but me". Should THAT really be FIRST? Really? Second...is "No images", no "idols"? Third is "don't take "God's" name in vain. Fourth, Keep the "Sabbath" day holy. The top four "commandments" are all about him. Why not START with the others...no murder, no adultery, honor parents...etc? Your "God" seems to be "all about me".

I had hope for Carl until I read all his religious bullsh!t. He's as brainwashed as the rest.

Faith does not require proof or evidence.

If I am wrong and you are right, I have lost nothing by believing.

If I am right and you are wrong, YOU have lost your soul and will pay not only for your lack of faith but your denying of the one and only GOD.

I guess that means that I have insurance.

That may seem simple, but I can live with that a lot better than you can live with your arrogance that gives you absolutely NO hope. A socialist that gives the government his faith becomes a communist. All of those man and government based ideologies have been tried and failed, but a system based on deity faith has survived and will survive until man is finally destroyed by his own arrogance. Self proclaimed scholars have always attempted to argue the fallacy of a Bible based faith, but in the end all of them lose. I wonder why it is so important for a few to win an argument to destroy another's faith. Is it because they feel doomed and wish company? Are they just miserable people that wish ill of others? Perhaps there is an evil in the world and the idea that "the devil made me do it" is not so ridiculous, and those naysayers are instruments of that evil?

Think about this; there is evidence of divine design in all of nature, but there is NO evidence that the existence of GOD is a lie. Even the big bang theory requires intelligent design.

Like I said above, my faith costs me nothing and may(WILL) gain me eternity. A lack of faith gains you nothing, even if you are right (and you aren't).

By the way, you argue small points as documented in the Bible attempting to destroy what you believe is faith. My faith does not require the Bible. I use it as a reference to my form of faith. Destroy the Bible and I will still believe. But, I have no fear of anyone destroying the Bible. It's been around for a lot longer than any human alive and it will still be a best seller when you are gone.

And I applaud you for your faith. It gives comfort to millions. Most of us don't object to a faith of any kind, what we object to is the use faith is sometimes put to...that is, often used to justify wars, to justify fear of the "other", to justify political aims, and to justify taking money from people who cannot afford it. This happens in every faith, I'm sure. Unscrupulous people are everywhere. So a little skepticism is not a bad thing. When "faith" is used to oppress another who is not of the same faith, then that is not serving anyone well.

You're right...faith requires NO evidence...that's why it's so easy to keep believing even after you've grown enough to understand its falsity. They "program" you as infants when you have no "defense"...you learn to "believe in God" as naturally as you begin to speak and walk...because it's ALL you know/are taught. Are you given a choice at birth? Christian, Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist? No...you become what your parents were. Religion is region based...depending on where you live...generally...determines your religion. It's an "accident of birth" you're a Muslim living in the ME...or an Indian Buddhist.

Sure you've lost something...your sovereignty...YOUR self determination. Did you "live a certain way" because your religion expected it? Then you paid a price. If you haven't "paid a price", then you're religious in name only and YOU are going to hell.

Say's YOU. There are another 5 billion people on the planet who disagree with Christianity. What makes you think you are right and everyone else is wrong? Arrogance?

NO...it means you THINK you have insurance. Which of the relativistic 5,000 sects are you a member of? Are you SURE you picked the right one? Do you obey ALL of God's laws? I doubt it...I doubt you even KNOW all of God's laws...it goes beyond the 10 Commandments.

What "hope"...that the afterlife will be better than here? I make HERE my heaven...I try to make HERE better.

So...THAT'S your "hope"? That man destroys himself through arrogance? You're probably right...but is it something to hope for?

Really? Who told you that? One of your religious leaders? What do you THINK they are going to tell you? The Bible does describe some true historical events...it's the WHY that is full of lies.

Oh...I don't know...maybe to keep you from living under delusion? HOW MANY delusions do you want? Religion, racial equality, gender equality...they're ALL delusions. The government is there to "help you" is another delusion. The medical industry wants to cure you...yet another.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn't "intelligent design". I don't know where it all began...why it all began...and I can live with that. I don't need to believe 5,000 year old myths conjured up by cavemen to explain things. And please explain this: The universe MUST have been created by intelligent design, it's too marvelous and complicated to have "just happened". And yet...you have NO problem believing your "Creator God" was ALWAYS there...or "just happened". It's circular reasoning and it's a dead end. I think it's better to just admit...I don't know...and keep looking for the real answers.

Your faith costs...your freedom...my lack of it gives me freedom.

Destroy the Bible and what is left to believe? Not Christianity. Didn't the NT "destroy" the OT? It's a completely different set of "values" and often contradicts the OT God. It's the ultimate relativism of the Jewish faith. Same with Islam...the same "God", completely different interpretation this one sticking more with the vengeful, punishing God. Would Jesus DESTROY entire cities? Destroy humanity with an all encompassing flood? And WHY a flood? why not leave everything and just make the "wicked" people disappear? God controls the weather, but can't make people disappear? A "rapture" sending them to hell? I mean after the flood, the plants are all gone too...what did everyone eat? Or is it impolite to question someone's "faith"?

Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide.
 

I have a couple of brief reflections on what you have concluded. Brevity is not easy for me, but I shall try.

1. Your thoughts on the accuracy of history reminded me of the old saying that "History is written by the victors." In the case of Christianity, Christian history was written by those who endured. They endured a vicious attempt by the Roman Empire to wipe them out, to include destroying records that they existed and by killing their adherents.

But the Romans were unsuccessful, as witnessed by the Roman Catacombs, filled with the remains of Christian dead, and remaining fragments of different books of the Bible, discovered centuries later in Christian monasteries, and of course the Muratorian fragment.

The very existence of Christians, then and now, is proof that Jesus lived, died, and rose to live again. The Apostles, and later Christian martyrs would not have died to further a cause that they knew was false, if they could be spared by simply saying a word of denial of Jesus.

2. You may know that there was a long period of time when the accuracy of accounts in the Bible were doubted because there was no physical "proof." But in the 1930s and later, archaeological digs and discoveries unearthed certain things which were found to be just as described in the Bible.

3. As a Baptist, with no dog in the fight, I think it was a mistake to allow Mass in the local language, abandoning Latin. The reason is simple. First off, it is not difficult to learn the relatively few Latin phrases in the Mass, and their meaning. I did so just because I sometimes went to Mass. In New Orleans it seemed that every politician who got elected to office wanted to hold a special Mass, and I was invited.

The reason I think Latin should have been retained is because in my travels around the world, my (Irish) Catholic companions had no problem going to Mass, and understanding it in Latin, although they didn't know a word in the local language. Having it in Latin emphasized the Global reach of the Catholic Church.

4. It is a shame that so many people who have lost interest in the denomination in which they were raised are reluctant to try a little visit to a local Southern Baptist Church. In the main, the churches contain down-to-earth, friendly people who are a far cry from the stereotypes often depicted by unfriendly critics.

And, if you sit down for a conversation with a Southern Baptist pastor, you will find that the core position of the church is similar to that articulated by Martin Luther so many years ago; in Latin - Sola Scriptura. What Does Sola Scriptura Mean?

The other position, the one that got Martin Luther in the most hot water, was Sola Fide. Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement. You are not required to do "works" to achieve Salvation. (No Confession; no Hail Mary; no acts of contrition; etc.)

But............. you also cannot achieve Salvation without Faith in Jesus as the provider of that Salvation. That is key.

Well...........Brevity got lost somewhere along the way.


Carl in Tampa


.

Great post!

It's the rantings of the brainwashed.

"I believe"...so it's true?

You are right on many accounts. That's why many of us do not put our faith so much in a religion per se, as in a relationship. I practiced a religion my whole life but never really "knew" God. It wasn't until I started studying the bible that I realized the difference between religion and having a relationship. Just like a person who calls himself a Christian is not a perfect person, religions created by man will not be perfect either. It is just a means to practice what we believe with other like minded people and to enjoy fellowship and worship God communally.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to you because I find it difficult to explain it myself, but I understand your skepticism. We have all been where you are at one point or another in our lives. It's something you have to come to yourself through seeking, if one desires.

For we live by faith, not by sight.
 

You don't believe...........so it's not true?

I suspect that you find our Faith much more disturbing than we find your disbelief. . . . chilout


Carl in Tampa

As you get older and "wiser"...you figure out that the religion you were raised on is just a bunch of bullsh!t...but you can't shake the premise of "God".

Found your own "religion" make it 5,001 different sects with different "interpretations" of a book of fictional stories.

Backwards again...

It's not true...so I don't believe.

I find your faith irrational.

What "disturbs" me is the extent of how right Barnum was...there are millions of suckers born every day...especially if you can get to them when they're vulnerable infants. What "disturbs" me is how strong conditioning done on infants is and how long it lasts. What "disturbs" me is that they use these same techniques on our children in school. They frame it in the context "Everybody feels the same way, you should too". It's the way the "news" is presented too.

We are lied to constantly, from every source. It's no wonder the incidence of psychiatric illness...and need for "calming" drugs...and of course...the need for a "God", a "spirit" to guide us.

I asked this of Carl before and he didn't answer for whatever reason so here it is again.

If you've never had it, how does a person acquire faith ? What if it isn't gifted to you ? And how would you know if it were gifted or know if it wasn't ?

This is such a great set of questions and I'm not sure I'm the most qualified to answer, but I'll give it a shot. It is gifted to anyone who desires it. God doesn't pick and choose, but he allows you to choose - do you want the gift of faith or not? It's a personal choice and you have to make that decision.

The only way I really know how to answer your question is by my own story. As I said, I grew up in the church and followed it quite faithfully when I was young, just like Don B said. But here's where his premise goes wrong, because I apparently wasn't brainwashed. There came a point in my life - in my 20's and 30's - where I felt I didn't need God, and by anyone looking in from the outside, it didn't seem that I did. I was successful in my chosen career, had a husband and family that was healthy and doing well on all accounts, etc. The problem was when I got older, in my 40's, I realized something was missing, like a hole in my heart or a broken chain that was missing a link. Everything else seemed so good but that feeling drove me to begin to seek. I started going to a bible study which at that time was way over my head, so when I sat down to do my lesson I prayed "God, if you're there and you want me to understand this, then you're going to have to help me". Apparently that was the knock on the door that he was waiting for, because from that point on, as they say, my eyes and ears were open to understand. It really transcends our human ability......it is deeply spiritual at that point.

You ask, how would I know whether I have the gift? Because first, what I said above - I began to understand things that before were totally beyond my comprehension. My life changed drastically - how I felt, how I thought, and how I acted. Others noticed too - a sort of calmness, deeper in my thinking, and greater compassion for others. And of course I no longer felt that hole or missing link anymore. I felt like my life was more complete, fuller and richer in every way. Most likely it is not the same for everyone, because as I said it is very personal, but you know when you got it.

Matthew 7:7-8King James Version (KJV)

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

It's all in that book, but you have to want it for yourself. Hope this helps to answer some of your questions. By the way, there is a really good nondenominational bible study group called Community Bible Study. There is a women's group in The Villages, but I think there is a men's group also, either in The Villages or Ocala, not sure which. You can look it up online at their website if interested. No previous experience needed to join and usually starts up each year right about now.

We are in agreement and may perhaps place a different emphasis on some of the historic and/or philosophical understandings?

My belief comes deep within my natural instincts. I leave the politics of religion to more scholarly people. I do so because scholars seem to spend more time telling people what is not rather than were we all come together on a belief in one God.

People seem to attend a service that fits their preferred choice of expressing faith. Some choose quiet reflection such as the Catholic Church of old and while not perfect it was better for them than its contemporary folk style

There were/are good Pope's and bad Pope's. Just as there were/are good Baptist pastors and bad Baptist pastors. I loved Pope John Paul II but dislike Pope Francis.

I recently saw an independent film about the Queen of Sweden ,Queen Christina born/died 1626-1689, reigned 1632-1654. She had great interests in religion, philosophy, mathematics, alchemy. She attracts many scientist to Stockholm

Before her reign and during her reign Sweden (Lutheran) was at war with nations (Catholic).

Christina rejected Lutheran's teachings, abdicated her throne, converted to Catholicism and went to Rome to serve the Pope. she is buried in the Vatican Grotto

It appears that trigger warnings and microaggressions existed even back then:D

Personal Best Regards:

.......and did He also create homosexuality and homosexuals? If so, was that a mistake by the faultless and perfect deity? If not, then what creates homosexuals? Does He love homosexuals as much as He loves you? Is every spectrum of society between the alpha and omega, including homosexuals? In His Holy Word, does He give you and others like you the right to judge homosexuals? Can homosexuals be Christian brothers and sisters with you? Can homosexuals go to Heaven? Do you judge homosexuals by the content of their character, or by some other standard? Has He shared these standards of your judgemental ism with you personally?

I have faith in HIS word, and it says he loves all people. If you want to know how he feels about homosexuals, read the Bible. If you don't believe in it, then why bother asking the question? Remember the part where it says God hates the sin but loves the sinner? Paraphrased of course. Whose judging besides the liberals? Just because someone does not condone a practice does not mean they can't tolerate it. There are radicals in any religion.