Consumer Reports, the magazine that most buyers review before a vehicle purchase, rates and recommends vehicles on value and performance. It is important to add the dimension you have when considering a 30 thousand dollar purchase, however, I believe the CR data influences most buyers in a powerful way.

.

"Does anyone expect a 30 year retiree with a good pension and healthcare benefits that most don't enjoy to be critical of the union which fought for those benefits??? It wont happen...."


With respect, I am admitadly as biased as an insider can be, but I think my life experiences are at least as valid as a well read outsider.

That pension and benifit package of mine was guranteed and funded by negotiated wages defered. Those health benifits that we once thought were a given are now eating a good portion of my fixed income with new fees and co-pays every time I turn around.

It was funny when I first read the comments earlier in this thread about intimidation, i jumped to the conclusion that managment was the intimadator. In my world the "head buster, worker exploiter" was the boss. Just another perspective, I guess.

I wonder if you feel that the goose is dead for everyone and that america is doomed to become a third world economy, or just dead for the middle class skilled and semi-skilled workers?

I am interested in what your background is rs, and upon what your retirement future depends?

My background: I am a physicain (psychiatrist). I am almost 59 y.o. and still practice her in TV. I spent 9 years in the Army as a physician and have practiced for 31 years in all. We have lived frugally (before moving to TV in June my 1994 Ford F 150 had served as my transportation for 14 faithful years). I have no pension except what I contibuted to my 401-K over the years. That has shrunk by 40 % in the past 12 months. I have NO healthcare benefits unless I pay for them. I must pay full fee for all prescriptions. I have but 1 regret and that is not staying in the Army as a US Army physician. Hindsight is 20/20. America's future is at risk as has been true of all great civilizations in the past. The Romans believed their empire would last forever. Greed, political self-interest, laziness and corruption... not to mention battles on too many fronts ended all of that. Hopefully we have the wisdom to pull out Aesop fables periodically to keep us honest.

rs...
Agree, agree. Like many folks, my fortunes have been up and down, back up and then down again. Result, the word retirement is still in the future for me.

Regardless of that, I have predicted for 15 years to anyone that would listen (which weren't many) that the export of the U.S. manufacturing base overseas would spell doom for the America we know it. Of course, my views were "poo-pooed" but I do believe the chickens are coming home to roost now. Someone much more savvy than I postulated that in order to have a thriving, growth oriented economy a country has to "make stuff". That's HARD GOODS, not phony financial products made of smoke and mirrors or hamburgers. Not everyone can be a maid or clean offices. It's production of real "Stuff" that makes money.

When a local firm's employees spend their hard earned dollars at LOCALLY OWNED businesses and services, that dollar turns 8-10 times in the community. In other words, $1 in payroll equals $8-$10 in additional sales, payroll, etc. for the local community.

When you buy foreign, WalMart for example, most of the money goes to Bentonville and then on to China, Indonesia or wherever. The payroll multiple is lost. The illusion of prosperity by buying goods cheaper is soon lost in a falling job base, etc. as local companies fold in favor of the multi-nationals buying overseas.

So getting back to the Union thing, those that are now collecting their Union negotiated benefits (for the moment) are surely the last generation to do so. In fact, if the current financial trends continue they may only be getting those benefits for a short while. I hope for them this is not the case, but one only need to look at Polaroid to see the devastating effect a company failure can have on retirees. When they went bankrupt a few years ago, many of their retirees were left with 0 benefits and they found themselves looking for work to make ends meet. It wasn't pretty. NOTE: The CEO's whose crappy decisions were at fault were retained at outrageous salaries to help with the workout. ???????

I do believe time will show we are in the midst of a seismic shift in our economy, politics AND our futures. A recent tally showed that in recent weeks the govt. has incurred about $7.2 TRILLION DOLLARS in bailout obligations of one sort or another. Where is this money going to come from?????? Can you say printing press? Can you say hyper-inflation?

No matter what happens with the auto's it's not going to be business as usual in the future. In fact, it's not going to be business as usual for anyone.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the outcome can be much different.:shrug::shrug:

I have a hard time "blaming" management or unions. they both do what they have to do.

What we need to think of as a society is how we want to maintain our standard of living. We have exported most of the manufacturing because we don't want to pay USA-made prices for goods, and believe if it can be made more inexpensive elsewhere (shipping included), that's the better bargain.

Since I have been alive I've seen manufacturing leapfrog out of the USA to many different countries.

First it was to Japan, and "made in Japan" became synonymous with "cheap and poor quality." However, after a while, Dr. Deming's philosophies worked their magic, and costs for Japanese goods went up concurrent with the quality.

Next, Taiwan and other countries in the Pacific Rim became the "Made in ...." centers, keeping up the tradition of reducing the price well below Made-In-USA, and even more of the manufacturing base went away.

Along came NAFTA, and while it didn't move that much North, a significant number of products (especially subsystems/components) went to Mexico.

Today, almost everything I see has a "Made in China" tag.

There is an obvious pattern to all of this - we buy more goods where the labor is exploited than not. We would rather turn a blind eye to the exploitation than Buy American.

So, it seems that we will continue to maintain our standard of living as consumers by buying foreign-made stuff where the labor is paid wages we wouldn't offer a despised in-law. The Balance of Payments is so far out of whack it cannot even be accurately measured anymore, and blue-collar manufacturing is disappearing in all the traditional toolbelt areas within this country. We have sold ourselves a story that everyone in the USA must have a college degree and a white-collar job to be successful, and as a result more and more of today's youth are willing to sit on their hands rather than get them dirty earning blue-collar money.

Now we have found ourselves heavily reliant on illegal aliens working at slave wages and conditions in the USA (and want again to turn a blind eye to the human condition) because if they weren't being exploited, our costs for goods would increase accordingly.

Yes, the economy is going to H#&&, but it is our greed as consumers - not management and unions - which deserves the lion's share of the "credit."

I remain hopeful. The world is rapidly running out of oil. The silver lining is that the country that capitalizes on this reality will be the economic/financial leader of the free world. History shows that hundreds of years ago when the Netherlands perfected water and wind power they became (until British coal came along) a leading world power... the little old Netherlands. If President (elect) Obama gives a Kennedyesque "man on the moon in 10 years speech" and devotes the trillions of dollars into the technology of alternative energy I believe we can again become a world economic power. Hydrogen cells, solar panels, windmills etc need to be MANUFACTURED.... so why not perfect the technology, do it here and sell it to the world. I know, sounds naieve and simplistic but : a) there's certainly gonna be a market and b) we've got the brain power to do it... it simply has to become TOP priority.

These are all such valid points! Steve you are so right that blame placing is a waste of time, as both management and Unions are obligated to do their best for their constituents (Management the shareholders and Unions the workers), but in the last 15 years we have moved a long way toward the understanding that when the ship sinks, the sailors and officers die. Joint cost and quality improvement efforts (many based upon Deming’s principals) have taken away the poor product argument. If you look to CR there are highly recommended American cars in every category. How much is it worth to each of us personally to commit to buy more American made products?

My father, (a loyal Cadillac guy) a manager with no auto industry ties, used to remind me, when I had a boyfriend pull up in a foreign car, that his stint on the USS Picking in the South Pacific in WWII would have been a waste of time if we gave our country away for a few bucks of savings to out of country government sponsored businesses.

Captain, That point about making "things" is one I have been arguing ever since the financial guys took over the top positions in the auto industry. The car lovers were replaced by the quick return on a dollar guys. These guys didn’t care if we ever made a car again, as long as we made a buck. To maintain a long-term robust economy any economist will tell you that you have to export more than you import, not just push around money and ideas.

When we lost steel jobs, most people not directly effected, didn't notice, “those jobs were dirty and the people didn't deserve the wages they were getting paid,” was the justification. Then came the call center jobs, the engineering and design jobs all outsourced (getting a little scary and closer to home), now we hear talk that European doctors are limited to about $50,000 per year, helping keep health care affordable for everyone. Questions abound about the worth of CEO's CFO's and other executives in banking and industry. We can go on pointing accusing fingers at each other until we all come crashing down or...

The Union's position is to bring everyone up, not down. Our strength is as RS, stated in innovation. The future belongs to the next new idea, and our dedication should remain to to making “it” here thereby keeping this country's economy strong and self sufficient.

They should pay us all to fix this mess, it seems like all of the answers are right in front of our noses!

Hey, what do we know? We're the "old geezers" and this is the age of the youngsters.

20 years of The Simpsons, Family Guy, the 70's Show, Malcolm in the Middle, and a host of others taught today's youth that Fathers and Mothers were stupid and could not be trusted, and that the kids knew better than any of us. We let Hollywood and the "free press" portray us a dumba$$e$, and look what we've got for it!

Dumb like a FOX we are(Arn't most of those shows FOX TV?)!

No, They're everywhere over the "dial."

SORRY... I worked my way through the ranks..passing other because I wa ambisious, hardworking and wanted to learn. I rose from a change order clerk making $2.45 an hour to a Vice President of a $60M consulting firm make 6 plus figures. This would not have happened if the union was involved... the guy with the most senioity would have moved, not the right person for the job.

I think the unions served thier purposes and made better labor relations and working enviorments..but thier time has passed..

I have no beef with unions. I am sure that they serve a crutial role in keeping management honest. However, and this is a big however, this argument is simply about the power of the secret ballot. This is fair to both labor and management. I do notice that we do not have check cards for any local, state or national election. I wonder why.

Congratulations on your success, but are there enough of "you" to support a robust economy on your own? The system is supported by contributions of the many, not the few.

Unions are just as relevant for the majority of the work force today as ever. Most people are just one bad management decision away from the unemployment line. That is particularly devastating if you are a hard worker at the end of a lifelong commitment to a company looking to down size.

It is a mistake to think that seniority prohibits advancement. I started in production, scored my way into the engineering trades and was appointed as a joint UAW/GM partner in quality management during my carreer. Hard work is still rewarded in a fair minded manner in a seniority system
ie: all things being equal (education, performance etc) the tie breaker is then seniority.

Yes and can all see the success that resulted from the 'GM/UAW partnership'.
There are now less than 60,000 UAW employees at GM down from a high of 600,000 in 1979 and the company has gone from one of the most profitable in the world to bankruptcy. The benefits of unions are as clear here as they were in the steel and many other industries. Union card check legislation would extend there 'benefits' to many more people and industries.