BBQMAN mentioned in a post about the proposed "card check" bill which is sponsored by President elect Obama and I think it may be worthy of its own thread.

The bill basically allows for the elimination of union elections and provides that once the union organizers get a majority of signatures on a petition that company is unionized. It was pushed hard by the unions of course, because I can tell you from personal experience there is a HUGE difference between a secret ballot and a petition !

What is scary to me about this is that there is a real financial impact we will feel in this country as a result of this legislation.....prices will rise and so will unemployment.

As with so much in the union world, 78% of current union members favor the current system but the "leaders" do not and have spent a ton of money in the past election to try and insure this gets passed.

I think this is MAJOR....it means that the pressure brought to bear by union organizers will be enough to unionize whatever target company there is. Watch out Walmart and Target, for two and watch out for the end of any low prices !!!!

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...day_for_u.html

I heard someone on Fox News say that campaigning is about "black and white" while governing is "shades of grey". Here is one issue where, as President, Obama will have to take a pass. Who wants to go on record as being against secert ballots? If this happens it will be seen as a payoff to the unions for their $upport. Remember, this is still a right of center country.

Originally Posted by Number 6

I heard someone on Fox News say that campaigning is about "black and white" while governing is "shades of grey". Here is one issue where, as President, Obama will have to take a pass. Who wants to go on record as being against secert ballots? If this happens it will be seen as a payoff to the unions for their $upport. Remember, this is still a right of center country.

He, President elect Obama, just does not support it....he is adamantly for it and I was under the impression that he sponsored the bill !!!

In any case, another link and some quotes from the link...

"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

The bill is "a poorly-disguised attempt by the labor unions to swell their ranks at the expense of workers' rights and employers.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...on-organizing/

in Louisville, KY.
In 1965 there were 11,00 employees, 6 huge manufacturing buildings (one for each major appliance)....a 1.5 million square foot warehouse. Lead market share in almost every product. And of course fully unionized.
That 11,00 grew to almost 24,000 in the late 70's. The pride was these were some of the few products still designed and made in America. Satellite plants in Milwaukee, Ft. Smith , etc.
More strikes than you can shake a stick at....sweepers in the 70's were pushing $20 per hour!!!!!!!!

Fast forward....all those buildings are still there. Of course they are empty. All the satellite plants are gone.
The total employment in Louisville is less than 5,000....all office and administration.
There is NO manufacturing. And this past summer Jeff Immelt (GE/CEO) announced the appliance business was for sale.

Not so slowly, the union wages drove this multi billion, leadership role in appliances in the world, bastion of manufacturing excellence into oblivion.

The unions have had the same effect on the automotive business over the years, almost eliminating manufacturing except for the remaining assembly plants.

I was in the machine tool business as well and at their peak there were more than 900 machine tool manufacturing companies in the US. In the late 80's that number was down to less than 200!!!!!

Now that the union has been suffering from lack of membership, is it any wonder they are sharpening their sights on retail and service businesses.
And yes, that too will deteriorate into oblivion as well.

I guess union executives are a lot like politicians...they are not in it for the people.

This country was always able to be a world leader because of the manufacturing base. It is now in the throws of becoming a retail and service provider only.

So when people talk about the paltry number of lost jobs that are so news worthy in the media these days.....where was everybody while all these other businesses were being wiped out??? Never mind it was a rhetorical question.

No manufacturing....increasing dependence on manufacturing from outside the US....increasing dependence on foreign energy suppliers.

This country has been on the skids for the last 40 years and nobody has done squat about it. So if there is legislation to help the unions then y'all better pay attention to who IS supporting it.

I feel sorry for my grandchildren, great grand children and their continuences because they will never ever enjoy the quality of life we all have....nor will they live in a country that was as standing tall as we had.

There were certainly more talented leaders at the helm in the past 40 years.....and they ALL....they ALL let it happen!

Why should anybody believe the current round of lip moving politicians are going to change anything?

Sorry for the lengthy speel but next to the silent majority my next favorite subject is what unions have done to manufacturing in this country.

BTK

Originally Posted by Guest

in Louisville, KY.
In 1965 there were 11,00 employees, 6 huge manufacturing buildings (one for each major appliance)....a 1.5 million square foot warehouse. Lead market share in almost every product. And of course fully unionized.
That 11,00 grew to almost 24,000 in the late 70's. The pride was these were some of the few products still designed and made in America. Satellite plants in Milwaukee, Ft. Smith , etc.
More strikes than you can shake a stick at....sweepers in the 70's were pushing $20 per hour!!!!!!!!

Fast forward....all those buildings are still there. Of course they are empty. All the satellite plants are gone.
The total employment in Louisville is less than 5,000....all office and administration.
There is NO manufacturing. And this past summer Jeff Immelt (GE/CEO) announced the appliance business was for sale.

Not so slowly, the union wages drove this multi billion, leadership role in appliances in the world, bastion of manufacturing excellence into oblivion.

The unions have had the same effect on the automotive business over the years, almost eliminating manufacturing except for the remaining assembly plants.

I was in the machine tool business as well and at their peak there were more than 900 machine tool manufacturing companies in the US. In the late 80's that number was down to less than 200!!!!!

Now that the union has been suffering from lack of membership, is it any wonder they are sharpening their sights on retail and service businesses.
And yes, that too will deteriorate into oblivion as well.

I guess union executives are a lot like politicians...they are not in it for the people.

This country was always able to be a world leader because of the manufacturing base. It is now in the throws of becoming a retail and service provider only.

So when people talk about the paltry number of lost jobs that are so news worthy in the media these days.....where was everybody while all these other businesses were being wiped out??? Never mind it was a rhetorical question.

No manufacturing....increasing dependence on manufacturing from outside the US....increasing dependence on foreign energy suppliers.

This country has been on the skids for the last 40 years and nobody has done squat about it. So if there is legislation to help the unions then y'all better pay attention to who IS supporting it.

I feel sorry for my grandchildren, great grand children and their continuences because they will never ever enjoy the quality of life we all have....nor will they live in a country that was as standing tall as we had.

There were certainly more talented leaders at the helm in the past 40 years.....and they ALL....they ALL let it happen!

Why should anybody believe the current round of lip moving politicians are going to change anything?

Sorry for the lengthy speel but next to the silent majority my next favorite subject is what unions have done to manufacturing in this country.

BTK

What I don't like about the "no secret ballot" concept is the intimidation factor that comes with the "raise your hand" vote. Union organizing brings with it high emotion and a "you're either with us or against us" attitude at the neighbor-to-neighbor and work-station-to-work-station level. The secret ballot mitigates much of that intimidation.

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

Originally Posted by cglenhar

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the answer was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

I am a second generation member of organized construction union labor. I served as Vice President and on the Executive board, finance and negotiating committees in a 17 year span as an officer of my local. I still carry a book (union card) into retirement, so I do have background in this subject.

The days of Jimmy Hoffa and strong arm characters saying things like “you’se guys” are a thing of the past. Hoffa was corrupt and a rogue but has zero bearing on the overall organized labor movement. Strikers with clubs beating sweat shop owners senseless and vice versa are also history.

Union meetings are run following parliamentary procedure. Simple votes are taken by a show of hands but controversial matters are by secret ballot. ANY union member can request a secret ballot on any issue brought to a vote. It is highly unlikely a rank and file member will let legislation like what has been discussed become reality at the local level, no matter what national organizers propose. It goes against all the rank and file stands for. I agree with Number 6 – Obama won’t endorse legislation that opposes the secret ballot process.

It is easy to blame unions for the ills of business and corporate failures. After all, a union member with a whopping $50k a year salary, pension and health benefits – an excess of wealth showered upon a mere worker! When an economy flounders and a product such as a new auto is not in demand the very first reaction is to blame labor. They have GOT to be at fault. But there are always two sides to every story. Mismanaged corporations and excesses also play a part in their struggles. Fear and greed are the enemies of all.

I remember watching a late night talk show years ago, and Barry Goldwater was one of the guests. He talked about a plumber coming to his home and said he was charged $25 an hour (remember, this was years past). He went on to say that NO plumber is worth $25 an hour. This from a man who was at that time making a high 5 figure salary from his senate position alone. It pretty much sums up the way some feel about labor, especially if they are organized.

The idea of taking away the secret ballot when voting on union representation is comparable to the constant claim by the NRA that candidate so and so is going to take away our guns and Second Amendment rights. It is just political banter that never materializes. “You’se guys” need not worry – this just ain’t gonna happen.

Originally Posted by Bucco

He, President elect Obama, just does not support it....he is adamantly for it and I was under the impression that he sponsored the bill !!!

In any case, another link and some quotes from the link...

"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

The bill is "a poorly-disguised attempt by the labor unions to swell their ranks at the expense of workers' rights and employers.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...on-organizing/

That's all well and good.... but when union demands and benefits drive a company into bankruptcy (general motors) DO NOT come crying to the taxpayers for a 50 billion bailout... 1/2 of which is to fund unrealistic health care benefits. That is insane and we need to stop the insanity.

There is nothing wrong with labor organizing into unions. I just believe that labor organizing, as well as management hire-fire, should not be done with even the potential of intimidation. That just puts the little guy at a big disadvantage from the beginning.

Whether it's the assemblyline worker seeking $5/hour more in benefits or the major league ballplayer seeking a $5million raise per season, labor is not wrong in trying to get as much for its services as it can - just like management setting its porduct prices for as high as it can, or the major league team owner who keeps raising ticket prices until folks just won't buy them anymore.

Just because some locals may still hold onto secret ballot doesn't mean all will, because what works oftentimes is the practice instead of what's right. That's why I hope whoever prompted this open-ballot idea doesn't get it.

Originally Posted by cglenhar

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the answer was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

The question is.....do you think there should not be a secret election ??

That is the question...please...would love to hear your comments on this as a long time union member.

My experience, albeit on the other side, is that there is quite a difference between the petitions and the election and there IS intimidation, whether intentional or not !!!!

Originally Posted by lazeelink

I am a second generation member of organized construction union labor. I served as Vice President and on the Executive board, finance and negotiating committees in a 17 year span as an officer of my local. I still carry a book (union card) into retirement, so I do have background in this subject.

The days of Jimmy Hoffa and strong arm characters saying things like “you’se guys” are a thing of the past. Hoffa was corrupt and a rogue but has zero bearing on the overall organized labor movement. Strikers with clubs beating sweat shop owners senseless and vice versa are also history.

Union meetings are run following parliamentary procedure. Simple votes are taken by a show of hands but controversial matters are by secret ballot. ANY union member can request a secret ballot on any issue brought to a vote. It is highly unlikely a rank and file member will let legislation like what has been discussed become reality at the local level, no matter what national organizers propose. It goes against all the rank and file stands for. I agree with Number 6 – Obama won’t endorse legislation that opposes the secret ballot process.

It is easy to blame unions for the ills of business and corporate failures. After all, a union member with a whopping $50k a year salary, pension and health benefits – an excess of wealth showered upon a mere worker! When an economy flounders and a product such as a new auto is not in demand the very first reaction is to blame labor. They have GOT to be at fault. But there are always two sides to every story. Mismanaged corporations and excesses also play a part in their struggles. Fear and greed are the enemies of all.

I remember watching a late night talk show years ago, and Barry Goldwater was one of the guests. He talked about a plumber coming to his home and said he was charged $25 an hour (remember, this was years past). He went on to say that NO plumber is worth $25 an hour. This from a man who was at that time making a high 5 figure salary from his senate position alone. It pretty much sums up the way some feel about labor, especially if they are organized.

The idea of taking away the secret ballot when voting on union representation is comparable to the constant claim by the NRA that candidate so and so is going to take away our guns and Second Amendment rights. It is just political banter that never materializes. “You’se guys” need not worry – this just ain’t gonna happen.

You call it political banter....our President Elect says this...


"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

Originally Posted by cglenhar

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

That's wonderful as long as MY taxes don not have to support YOUR pension and health benefits through a bailout. If Detroit can produce a quality product that everyone wants and can afford to provide the benefits you have, wonderful, However, if the benefit package bankrupts the company do you believe the American taxpayer should pay you benefits?

Originally Posted by rshoffer

That's wonderful as long as MY taxes don not have to support YOUR pension and health benefits through a bailout. If Detroit can produce a quality product that everyone wants and can afford to provide the benefits you have, wonderful, However, if the benefit package bankrupts the company do you believe the American taxpayer should pay you benefits?

RS...you have captured the essence of the question succinctly. I would like to see your question an Bucco's secret election question answered.

I would also ask why do foreign car manufacturers building cars in America seem to be feeling less pain and selling more cars?

My understanding of the Union card check issue is the National Right to Work allows for 2 types of votes. The first type would be a secret ballot. However, because of intimidation within the workplace the workers may choose to have the government come in a validate the results. The is the not secret ballot.

I think we should all understand that many of these Free Trade agreements put our workers at risk because they don't impose the same standards on the trading partners that we have here. This is just a race to the bottom of the wage pool.

I am trying to check...but I have visited hospitals in Japan and I am pretty sure they have government mandated hospitals along with a pricier private hospital system.