ladydoc ~ What choice do the unborn children who are the result of rape or incest? Is any of it their fault either? In what venue do two wrongs make a right? The forgotten victims of rape are also children....http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nforgotten.htm

Please explain this to me
 

I have been fascinated reading some of your answers. All of us are entitled to our opinions. We each have to answer to our god....we each need to make our own decisions BUT I have NO right to make a decision about a woman's right to choice. Neither do you, in my opinion...the one I have a right to have.

Here is my basic confusion in all of this. Given the demographics of TV, I am going to assume that the majority of responders are republicans. If this is not a valid assumption, then I apologize. Actually I have two questions...1) why does it seem that your interest in having these unwanted children born ENDS when they are born and 2) are you willing to pony up with increased taxes and social programs to care for all of these children? Will you adopt one?

I think not; not given all that I have read in other posts. A family that can not care for another baby is not going to magically have the resources once the child is born. The other children in the family will have to do with even less. Every child deserves basic things...like food and a clean place to live. Maybe parents who care about their development and education. Personally I feel that if you are not willing to help with the child after its birth then you have no right to insist it be born.

I don't like the idea of abortion; no one likes the IDEA, but reality is reality. I will not insist that a 12 year old incest victim have a baby....

It's not a hard question and I believe I made myself clear. By law the hypothetical 12 year old girl has the right to abort the baby forced on her by extreme violence of body and spirit. If such a decision was made, every true Christian would pray for that girl and the destroyed new life.

But your are at odds with your faith in Christ, if in your heart you support the termination of that innocent life. It's a terrible thing that happened to that hypothetical 12 year old girl, but for a Christian of faith, is it any more terrible that the death of the innocent life?

But as the vast majority of abortions (maybe 96% of them are performed for birth control reasons according to the World Health Organization) we have more than the "12 year old" to ponder when it comes to abortion.

1-You assume that my interest ENDS when the "unwanted" child is born- WRONG

2-I not only pony up the tax money, but I support numerous groups that assist unwed mothers, victims of rape and incest, pregnancy centers in my area. AND I have an adopted child, and I support others who are desperate to have a child thru adoption since they cannot concieve and those who just love children with their giant sized hearts.

and I will add a number 3-reality is reality...It is always easier to remove a problem than to dig deep into your heart and resolve it in a loving miraculous way. I choose LOVE. Love conquers all!

Therefore, when you say "I think not", you thought wrong.

Ladydoc has an excellent post.

You are a wonderful example of how it should be, but you KNOW you are the exception. Unfortunately love does not conquer all....never has. I wish it did. If it did, most of my family would not have died in the ovens in Germany.

I guess this boils down to at what point you believe a cluster of cells has a soul....

I am truly sorry for what Nazi Germany did to your family and many others.
I do not KNOW myself to be the exception- there is a gigantic silent majority of which you apparently know anything about.
And YES, LOVE does conquer all. Hundreds of Christians died at the hands of the Nazi's because they chose to love and show love to their Jewish neighbors and friends. One of the results of which were getting many Jewish people, especially children smuggled to safe countries.
ALSO Millions of young men gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice in WWII to stop the advance of the Third Reich. The same Third Reich that had at it's very beginnings legal and often forced abortion.

A cluster of cells that are alive and growing at a phenomenal rate...
We protect the endangered species of plants and animals that are around us. They are alive, but do they have souls?

You sound like a very nice lady (?); we just happen to be poles apart in our beliefs. Thank god we are in America, where this is OK and we can both say what we believe.

:mademyday:

Thank You, and I also thank God we are in America where WE can say what we believe. It will be even more free when the unborn babies are protected enough to be able to someday say what they believe too:icon_wink:

I am glad! By the way, did you or anyone else also hear that swishing sound as once again the subject being discussed gets swept under the rug?

I am not sweeping it under the rug...I am acknowledging that neither of us can say anything to influence what the other believes. So why prolong the discussion? I know your position. You know mine.

There you go, assuming again. If the discussion ends we will never know if either of us can influence what the other believes. Closed dialogs are often the last thing that happens before war breaks out.

Yea, and closed discussions is when someone puts another on the ignore list.:jester:

I know nothing you can say will change my mind and you really believe there is anything I could say to change yours? Come on...be honest. I think you want me to change my position. Not going to happen. I have heard it all for more then 30 years. Beliefs based in religion are very very difficult to change. I also learned a long time ago not to try to discuss such things with these folks. Maybe I did not learn it well enough since I engaged in a discussion with you. War breaking out? I am not going to war with you....lol.

Did you also happen to notice that you were the ONLY one to address the issue I brought up, which is what are you going to do to support these unwanted babies?

OH, so we haven't even gotten to the scientific evidence!...Pretty busy with some family things today, but will definitely try to address that asap! :laugh:

~http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/f...velopment.html


~(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology)-life-"the state or quality that distinguishes living beings or organisms from dead ones and from inorganic matter, characterized chiefly by metabolism, growth, and the ability to reproduce and respond to stimuli." You might also consider one of the simple definitions in Webster's-life:c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction .
(Pretty sure that an unborn baby has us both beat on its rate of growth alone.)

~Abortion doctor faces 8 counts of murder...http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...nts-of-murder/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...701801_pf.html
http://afterabortion.org/2005/womens...ion-new-study/

Mom bleeds to death after abortion perforates her uterus...http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2009/...-abortion.html

It remains, that two wrongs do not make one right.


~Link to the documented scientific data of the horrific after effects on the woman who has chosen abortion...http://afterabortion.org/post-abortion-review-index/

Ladydoc,

It is no use to argue with Katz - as you can see. I tried telling her one time that I was not going to change my mind as a Pro-Choice person and I knew she would not change her mind and that should end it. Katz did not want to let it go and as you can see, she will just keep on going even though she should know our minds will not change from being Pro-Choice.

I am so happy that my mother was anti-abortion.:spoken:

Dehumanizing life at it's beginnings is very convenient. If you are Christian, you have no question as to when life begins.

Ok, I've read most (though nto *all*) of this.. I might as well chime in here.

1) Saying that pro-choice = pro-abortion by fiat declaration borders on silly. It's an attempt to control the narrative. What *some* fail to understand is that pro-choice, by it's most common definition means allowing the woman the CHOICE - whether it's birth, adoption or abortion. My thoughts on the subject is that abortion is the symptom, not the disease. Unwanted pregnancies are the disease. Stop the pregnancies in the first place and you've virtually solved the abortion problem - with VERY few exceptions.

2) The whole "Jesus" thing and how He'd feel about abortions.

I apologize in advance for the tone I'm about to be taking.

How *bleeping* convenient it is for some cherry-picking Christians to rail against abortions and then turn around and vote for the same GOP/Tea Party conservatives who's first course of action for ANYTHING is to cut spending on the poor while protecting tax breaks for corporations!

I was raised a Catholic and, believe you me, they were very against abortions - but they were also out there constantly making efforts for the poor. Soup kitchens, food pantries, relief centers - you name it. Heck, if it hadn't been for their disgusting responses to the pedophile priest scandals I might still be supportive of them.

Ok, got that bit of a rant out of my system for now.

I say this from the point of view of someone who WAS adopted. I also have two daughters. In addition I was there for both a miscarriage and an abortion. I was NOT happy with that latter decision but when you combine birth control failure with not being able to afford another kid, you have a rough time coming. Now, on top of that, add the fact that you both just went in for full body x-rays (started chiropractic theraphy and had no idea that my wife was just days pregnant) and what the doctors told us was NOT good.

I've said it before, and I'll be saying it again - get rid of unwanted pregnancies and you get rid of abortion.

I know this was directed at Katz, but I'm not trying to change your mind, per se; as much as I'm trying to get you to access your belief in it's relation to your own faith if you call yourself Christian.

You can debate me all you want. I want you to picture yourself debating this issue with Jesus Christ. If you call yourself Christian, you should be able to do this.

(All the "you's" above are collective "you's; I'm not picking on you Buggy; just the subject matter at hand)

If we are to beleive: The soul exists prior to conception and after death.

Refrencing the soul is a strawman argument. IMHO

You said this better then I did. Thank you! My first comment was about being against abortions but not being willing to pony up to the plate with funding, etc. You did word it better then I did...

:bigbow:
Now theres a perfect answer, a question and solution all in one.
Thanks, great post.

I couldn't agree more djplong! I addressed teaching abstinence, if not in this thread, then another over this weekend. It was shot down by the arguement that they are going to have sex anyway so teach birth control and put condoms on bananas. I think that you have already expressed that birth control can fail and bring you to a rather difficult decision. I too can only say that half of my brood were "planned pregnancies", but I wouldn't change a thing!

Seems to me that to every argument there are two sides. In this case one side is for abortion and one side is against. If you pick up a clever slogan like pro-choice, that's just a cop-out. (wow been awhile since I heard that expression "cop-out")

Gives you the leeway to do whatever you want and the heck with the consequences. I was there before they came up with the Pro-Choice slogan.

It is either right or wrong to abort babies.

Richie,

As I have said more than a few times before, the posters on here that are no Pro-Choice have their beliefs and I, being a Pro-Choice advocate, have my beliefs. Neither will change the other's mind.

You say I can debate you all I want. I don't want to. My beliefs are mine. My religious views are mine. Can we just put this aside and agree that we disagree on this immovable issue for both of us. Thanks.

...oh...just checking to see if RichieLion got an answer yet...:laugh:

KatzPajamma: I love and respect your tenasity and golden heart on this issue.

RichieLion: I feel ya brother. You have added a third catagory (Christian Choice) to this issue.

Ladydoc: I have to say that you have great points and stated them very clear.

I believe personaly I would support KatzPajamma first. (PRO-Life)
I believe as a Methodist that Richielion is most accurate.(PRO-Christian)
I believe as a US Citizen, I must Vote Pro-Choice.

I was wondering why just about the only post of mine you have not responded to is the one where we were talking about following tenets of faith and you said you believed birth control was ok and implied you used it. I pointed out that although I agree with you, the Church says that is a no-no. My point was that a sin is a sin. Just because you don't like it and don't follow it does not give you a pass. So what are you going to say to Jesus about that one? That it is not as big a sin as abortion, so it's no big deal?
You are under no obligation to respond to anything I say, just wondering why THIS one was unanswered. Don't really need to answer it if you don't want to. But I just have to parrot you for a second REJECTED!!

Read every version of every bible you can find and send me a verse where Jesus Christ rejected birth control. It doesn't exist Ladydoc. Birth control mandates were set in place by fallible human beings, not the son of God.

The words of Jesus Christ plainly reveal his view of the unborn child, though. We need no one to interpret those words.

There's no need to get in my face during this discussion. I was not uncivil to anyone in the thread.

I can see by your reference that you read my posts in other threads, so thanks for holding onto my words. I appreciate it.

She got into my face with a PM and when I responded, she put me on her ignore list. Go figure, huh?

To quote Al Gore (I love to quote Al Gore):
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.":laugh:

No, you were never uncivil. So, you are not accepting of the Church's position on birth control. Based on what did the church come up with that "ruling" then. The papacy's interpretation is wrong? Interesting. I went to Loyola University and had many priests and nuns as friends. As I said in an earlier post, their private positions on many issues were not according to party line...they were much more humanistic!

I do read your posts. I agree with very little that you say, but you do state your beliefs clearly and say what they are based on. You are not rabid or hateful in your posts. Sometimes a little sarcastic, but never mean. That is a plus.

Thank you for your candor. I'm not trying to change the world with my posts on this thread. I'm really just attempting to get those who believe themselves to be devout Christians to examine this belief, and consider that they are at perilous odds to their faith if they support the practice of abortion.

It's merely a question I'm asking you to ponder for yourself. I have my own transgressions to contemplate.

Remember Richie, liberals are wary of people who put God before government.

Here's another Al Gore Quote. ( I love to quote AlGore)

"Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

The government IS like God to some people.

OK, I'll join in the Al Gore quotes. here's one I like.....

"We are ready for an unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

Since Village Golfer and RichieLion opened the door on dumb quotes, here is one, also:

"But obviously, we've got to stand with our North Korean allies." --Sarah Palin, after being asked how she would handle the current hostilities between the two Koreas, interview on Glenn Beck's radio show, Nov. 24, 2010

We could go on all night with gaffes from all sides. Why bother? Someone will bring up 57 states, someone will bring up being physically close to Russia, death panels, swine flu, and it just goes on to no end. Let's quit.

I am sure Village Golfer will want to get one last one in - like he always does.