Golf Course Conditions

[nitehawk]

Nice try but none of the above. Deplorable doesn't imply any of obvious junk you mention. It simply means that the course was in crappy shape, not for any of the excuse type reasons you imply. A ball on the fairway should rest on grass. A ball putted on the green should not jump up and down 10 times on a four foot putt. I'm a golfer so please don't challenge me when I say deplorable. Lopez on Monday was in very good shape, just in case you don't think I'm fair. If you play in a group with 5 and 6 handicap players you might accept their opinion about deplorable conditions. If you play with 30 handicappers you probably wouldn't have a basis for knowing.

:BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplaus e::BigApplause::BigApplause::bigbow::bigbow::bigbo w::bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:
I can see you are a man that does not spend his day on totv but out playing golf and know what you are talking about --- i for one know that to be a single digit handicap you have played many courses and sent a lot of time on the course. If you are playing with a group of similar handicap golfers i respect your opinion. After playing bonifay, I once said (imo) that bonifay was a cow pasture with sand traps. That brought out the posse with their water guns filled with kool-aid. this time they seem to be really rude-----------Please do not stop post your opinion of course conditions Thank you

[Moderator]

Please direct your comments to the topic and not to or at each other.

[graciegirl]

One of the things that I like about golf is that generally speaking a golfer is a patient athlete who plays the conditions as part of the challenge.

When you criticize golf course conditions be specific. Lousy, deplorable, crummy, are not words that explain.

Brown dry grass, bare spots, wet spots, bare greens suffering from disease, poor cutting,under or over watered, over fertilized, are some ways that tell us what is wrong.

I have rewritten this for obvious reasons.

Hit me again. I have my six iron ready. ;)

[deltaguy]

One of the things that I like about golf is that generally speaking a golfer is a patient athlete who plays the conditions as part of the challenge. The golfers that I have run into for the 40 plus years that I have played golf have been gentlemen and gentlewomen and the golfer I am married to is an excellent golfer. When I asked him about Hacienda Hills and mentioned that someone thought the conditions were deplorable, he just shrugged. He is a man that if he hits less than the shot he aimed for, he doesn't blame anything or anybody he just makes a better shot the next time.

You can tell a person's character very quickly on the golf course.

Many would say that the well known courses in Scotland are very difficult. My husband just braved the rain and wind and the pot bunkers and the challenging rough and enjoyed the game. He always plays well.

Several comments:
1) This Thread has nothing to do with "the Patience of athletes".
2) It is not about the 40 years of lovely people you have played golf with
3) It is not about how well or poorly your spouse plays golf
4) Hacienda Hills is not in Scotland not does it have to do with how wet and windblown someone might have been playing there.
5) I sincerely trust that your reference to a players character was not intended as a reference to me
6) Hacienda Hills in not a difficult course but it most certainly is currently in very poor (deplorable) condition.

As the moderator implied in a recent post, comments should be directed to the subject of the Thread.

[nitehawk]

Several comments:
1) This Thread has nothing to do with "the Patience of athletes".
2) It is not about the 40 years of lovely people you have played golf with
3) It is not about how well or poorly your spouse plays golf
4) Hacienda Hills is not in Scotland not does it have to do with how wet and windblown someone might have been playing there.
5) I sincerely trust that your reference to a players character was not intended as a reference to me
6) Hacienda Hills in not a difficult course but it most certainly is currently in very poor (deplorable) condition.

As the moderator implied in a recent post, comments should be directed to the subject of the Thread.

You really have a way with words :ho:

[mickey100]

Several comments:
1) This Thread has nothing to do with "the Patience of athletes".
2) It is not about the 40 years of lovely people you have played golf with
3) It is not about how well or poorly your spouse plays golf
4) Hacienda Hills is not in Scotland not does it have to do with how wet and windblown someone might have been playing there.
5) I sincerely trust that your reference to a players character was not intended as a reference to me
6) Hacienda Hills in not a difficult course but it most certainly is currently in very poor (deplorable) condition.

As the moderator implied in a recent post, comments should be directed to the subject of the Thread.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. :BigApplause:

[mickey100]

Reread my post. I have talked to Golf Operations on the subject of Golf Course conditions a number of times. All they do is come up with lame excuses. In a nutshell, they simply don't care as there are enough "golfers" in TV who will play on whatever crappy venue is put before them and still think they are in utopia.

I did reread your post and didn't see anything about you talking to Golf Course Operations, just a general comment about complaints. I had no way of knowing who you complained to. No need to be so nitpicky, I'm on your side.

We do agree on one thing - There are a huge amount of residents that buy into the utopia concept, and won't complain about anything. Their loss. But, I also know, that in the past when Operations received a large number of emails, phone calls and complaints in any form, that they did respond and take action at least at one particular course. But it means not just one or two people making calls, we have to get the members of our golf groups to all get involved. The squeakier the wheel, the faster it gets oiled. I think they (Operations) care, but they sometimes need to be prodded.

[graciegirl]

Well, EXCUSE US. All we were trying to do was gain some insight into what specifically goes into a course being "deplorable". I didn't know that you had to be a single digit handicap to understand course conditions. It's just that it seems reasonable that to classify a course that way there may be some specifics that would enlighten us ignorant higher handicappers so we, too, can rant about the conditions. Sorry that doing so would be a waste of your time. Frankly, if you walk into golf administration offices with the elitist attitude you present in this thread, I would expect them to respond in kind and give you their "lame" excuses to get you out of there.

What Mike said.:BigApplause:

Anonymous ranting posters who use non specific terms aren't very credible.

[nitehawk]

What Mike said.:BigApplause:

Anonymous ranting posters who use non specific terms aren't very credible.

Says Who ?????????

[Moderator]

Again, please, stay on topic and cease the personal bickering. If need be, we will go back and delete all of these off topic posts.

This thread is for specific reports of good or bad golf course conditions at Champ and Exec course within the Villages.

Anybody played Bonifay lately?

[deltaguy]

Again, please, stay on topic and cease the personal bickering. If need be, we will go back and delete all of these off topic posts.

This thread is for specific reports of good or bad golf course conditions at Champ and Exec course within the Villages.

Anybody played Bonifay lately?

No, but my sources tell me it's in very good condition. Have it as my first choice for this week's booking.

[mickey100]

Palmer was in great shape yesterday.

[Jaurian]

played Bonifay on 09/15/13 and the course was in good shape .....I like the new cart path which goes around the back of the par three green 4th (?) on the Fort Walton nine!

[TheVillageChicken]

Played mini golf at Tree Tops last night. The windmill does not revolve at a uniform rate and there was a slight tear in the carpet on the signature hole. Also, the noise coming from the American Legion is distracting. Somebody needs to teach these boobs some etiquette too. There were several five and sixsomes, and what's with the kids on the course?

[mickey100]

Ha, ha! Seriously, I played Mallory today, Amelia. Fairways okay, a little wet in spots. Greens not so good - rough surface, have not fully recovered from aeration.

[fred53]

Played mini golf at Tree Tops last night. The windmill does not revolve at a uniform rate and there was a slight tear in the carpet on the signature hole. Also, the noise coming from the American Legion is distracting. Somebody needs to teach these boobs some etiquette too. There were several five and sixsomes, and what's with the kids on the course?

surreptitious drinking on those micro courses too ;-)

[cabo35]

Played nine holes on Palmer - Cherry Hill late yesterday. Course and greens in good shape. We recently returned from the Jersey shore and when I updated my SkyCaddie I noticed Evans Prairie's Egret was available. Is it open? If so, how is it? Haven't checked but a couple of pages of back posts

What courses are in superior condition?

[Mikeod]

Played nine holes on Palmer - Cherry Hill late yesterday. Course and greens in good shape. We recently returned from the Jersey shore and when I updated my SkyCaddie I noticed Evans Prairie's Egret was available. Is it open? If so, how is it? Haven't checked but a couple of pages of back posts

What courses are in superior condition?

Egret is supposed to open this month. Not sure of the exact date.

[cabo35]

Played Riley at Palmer today. Been away for awhile but the course is in good shape. Fairways green and healthy. Greens very good.

[ajbrown]

Most of the courses*** seem in reasonable shape post over seed, but I thought Lopez today was a step ahead. The greens seem 18 inches faster than the others I have been playing lately and worth a try. I played Erin to Ashley....

*** I have played Havana, Mallory, Cane and Glenview recently.

[cabo35]

We played Lopez yesterday and I agree with ajbrown, the course is in very good condition. Started on Ashley.

I haven't played any of the new executive courses south of 466A. Which ones are worth while?

[LittleDog]

I've played Palmetto, Sweetgum, and Mangrove and like them all. Mangrove goes thru a lot of prairie with a lot of water, Sweetgum is more wooded and is a very pretty course, and Palmetto is sort of in between these others. It has a couple of par 4's.

John

[waynet]

Egret greens still not ready. They went with the cheap stuff again. I don't get it.

[cabo35]

Cane Garden, Hibiscus to Jacaranda is in decent shape. Hadn't played there in a while.

[nitehawk]

Egret greens still not ready. They went with the cheap stuff again. I don't get it.

Used to be good clubhouses and good golf courses - as time goes on it seem to "quantity not quality" although some people will not see or admit to it -

[waynet]

I just don't get it. For a place that is on the cutting edge in so many areas those responsible for the golf courses are still using 1970's methods and resources. It's all about water and disease people. Modern grasses such as champion Bermuda and Mini Verde should be used on the new greens. They had a chance at Tierra and nothing improved. They had chances to use modern grasses across 466a and didn't. Egret is messed up. Again water and disease are the issues. And please don't tell me about expense. The golf courses make tremendous amounts of money,all of them.

[Mikeod]

I just don't get it. For a place that is on the cutting edge in so many areas those responsible for the golf courses are still using 1970's methods and resources. It's all about water and disease people. Modern grasses such as champion Bermuda and Mini Verde should be used on the new greens. They had a chance at Tierra and nothing improved. They had chances to use modern grasses across 466a and didn't. Egret is messed up. Again water and disease are the issues. And please don't tell me about expense. The golf courses make tremendous amounts of money,all of them.

You may want to read this article. Especially the summary. What I get out of it is these ultradwarf bermuda grasses require more maintenance than the Tifdwarf types. Double cutting, sanding every two weeks, rolling, etc., certainly increase the tempo of maintenance. That may be a problem with the volume of play here.
http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2008/jan_feb/going_for_gold.pdf

[waynet]

champion bermuda and Mini Verde are the grasses I mentioned. They are what the majority of southern golf courses are using. Need less water and are much better against disease. Far less maintenance.

[Mikeod]

champion bermuda and Mini Verde are the grasses I mentioned. They are what the majority of southern golf courses are using. Need less water and are much better against disease. Far less maintenance.

That's not what the USGA article indicated concerning ultradwarf bermudas, which includes champion and mini verde. It was written by the Director of the USGA Green Section for Florida, who should be a credible source. I would be interested in a link supporting your assertion.

[ajbrown]

This past week I played Bonifay and Glenview.

Both had sanded greens.

I was impressed by Bonifay's greens. Even with the sand, they had some speed to them. One interesting thing about the day was that my two playing partners thought the place was in terrible shape, too hard and dry.... It was completely the opposite of how I would have assessed. Their complaining did see to be proportional to the number of triple bogeys they made :D

I must say, I was again disappointed by Glenview. It has always been one of my favorite golf facilities in TV, but more often than not I am underwhelmed by the conditions. I am not saying it was horrible, it is very playable, but is not keeping up with other courses that I have played is TV. Always too wet IMO. If you have a day to play up that end, play Lopez. (I do share this with the correct folks online so they can use as they will).

Anyone been over to OB? Rumor is it is good shape...

How about Tierra?

[waynet]

Mike,sorry it has taken me this long. I did read the article and didn't get the same results as you did. I think the maintenance is different not more. Could be done with a little training and a lot less time spent in the bunkers doing whatever they do to them.

[collie1228]

My group played OBH twice over the past couple weeks, and its condition was pretty good. Green speeds on the front nine were like lightening, and pin placements overall were extremely difficult. If you were putting from above the hole, you had no chance to stop the ball unless the hole got in the way. But I like the layout and had two enjoyable rounds. We played Tierra last week and found it to be pretty much the same as before its "haircut". Funny, but we played it the Friday before they closed it, and I thought it was in great condition then, especially the greens. On Friday we played Hacienda Hills, and the conditions were very good. Fairways in particular are lush and soft. Greens generally in pretty good condition with reasonable speed. I guess I must be easy to please.

[waynet]

played Havanna today....my favorite golf course. 20 guys, all good players. The same stuff."Don't plug!" Anyone who thinks these bunkers are good just does not have a clue. They are awful.

[collie1228]

We played Mallory (Amelia to Caroline) yesterday in the low 50 degree temps, and the course was in excellent condition. The greens are in the best condition I've seen them after playing this course for 18 months. And I totally agree with the comments about the "awful" sand in many of the bunkers, especially at Lopez and the "new" bunkers on TDS.

[waynet]

played Bonifay yesterday. Course in good shape,greens nice speed,fairways in good shape. Greenside bunkers awful,much too soft. But the fairway bunkers had not been touched so they were pretty good. I like Bonifay very much.

[Bay Kid]

The sand in the bunkers is so fine. They look great, I just don't know how to hit out of them.

[waynet]

Bay,you are not alone.

[pessy33]

I always find that it's best just to avoid the bunkers altogether, irrespective of how good the sand is.

Yeah, like I have any say in where my ball goes :)

[waynet]

played Cane yesterday. Love the layout. Greens seem to be beat up with lots of old fixed ballmarks all over the place and some greens lacking grass again. Hope they get it right and not lose greens again. Or maybe try some different grasses?

[waynet]

played Hacienda Friday and Saturday. Nice layouts. The greens were the worst I've played in the Villages especially the 9 they shut down for 8 months. That 9 had the slowest,bumpiest greens possible. How can you shut a place down for 8 months and show NO improvement ay all. Greens Keeper should be fired.

[waynet]

played Bonifay yesterday. That's what a golf course should look like. Fairways really good ,greens FAST ,sand OK. Best golf course in the Villages by far.

[ajbrown]

Played Egret yesterday (Evans Prairie). I was pleasantly surprised by the condition of the greens and course condition in general. IMO the greens are better than other championship courses I have played recently (Havana, Glenview, Lopez, Cane)

A special shout out to Frank the ambassador. The first few holes were terribly slow. Frank took care of the slow group somehow and things moved nicely after that. It could have been a long day if not for Frank spotting an issue and getting it resolved.

[ldj1938]

Played Stonecrest GC last week. It's like the worst public golf course you have ever played!!

[golf2140]

It's that time of year. Renters, please fix your ball marks on the greens. Yes, I'm ready for abuse.

[collie1228]

We played Tierra Del Sol on Friday, and I must have repaired two dozen ball marks on the greens (not made by me). I hardly made a dent in the number of neglected ball marks. Course conditions were OK, but the greens were glacially slow. Apparently they had not been mowed that morning.

[nitehawk]

does anyone rake anymore.....

[waynet]

played Mallory today and will repeat....they are the worst bunkers I have played anywhere. As for raking...if you are in some of these bunkers you will rake 20 feet to get in another 20 to get out and rake deep heavy sand and God forbid if you land in the face of a bunker,you might get a heart attack raking those faces!

[Challenger]

Last sunday afternoon 2:50pm played Belmont. On the eighth hole, now at 2hrs. there were 4 foursomes on the hole.
Said something to Ambassador about someone taking charge of the situation. He was polite but clearly was going to do nothing and told me so in just those words. Have been here for 3 yrs and it has now become an intolerable situations (9 hole courses). Bunkers are a mess always. Ball marks on greens very bad .

I am generally a cheer leader for TV but it is time for someone? to take action to improve conditions on the Executive courses.

If ambassadors can do nothing(their words) who can? Someone in authority is clearly not paying attention . If they are paying attention, shame.

Dissapointed!

[nkrifats]

Last sunday afternoon 2:50pm played Belmont. On the eighth hole, now at 2hrs. there were 4 foursomes on the hole.
Said something to Ambassador about someone taking charge of the situation. He was polite but clearly was going to do nothing and told me so in just those words. Have been here for 3 yrs and it has now become an intolerable situations (9 hole courses). Bunkers are a mess always. Ball marks on greens very bad .

I am generally a cheer leader for TV but it is time for someone? to take action to improve conditions on the Executive courses.

If ambassadors can do nothing(their words) who can? Someone in authority is clearly not paying attention . If they are paying attention, shame.

Dissapointed!


If all nine holes are full and my guess is that they where. What is he going to do?

[mickey100]

Last sunday afternoon 2:50pm played Belmont. On the eighth hole, now at 2hrs. there were 4 foursomes on the hole.
Said something to Ambassador about someone taking charge of the situation. He was polite but clearly was going to do nothing and told me so in just those words. Have been here for 3 yrs and it has now become an intolerable situations (9 hole courses). Bunkers are a mess always. Ball marks on greens very bad .

I am generally a cheer leader for TV but it is time for someone? to take action to improve conditions on the Executive courses.

If ambassadors can do nothing(their words) who can? Someone in authority is clearly not paying attention . If they are paying attention, shame.

Dissapointed!

I agree as far as ball marks and raking on executive courses. You could go to any executive course in the Villages and find a couple dozen ball marks to fix. And I rarely land in a bunker that has no footprints in it. People are either ignorant of golf courtesy, or just plain lazy.

[Challenger]

If all nine holes are full and my guess is that they where. What is he going to do?

You make a good point . However the situation should have been corrected far in advance of a back up that had four groups on 1 par three hole. Is there no one who could monitor such situations. If it is not the Ambassador's job then who?

[waynet]

Men's Day...today. 2nd hole on Virginia. 5 foursomes and 2 mowers on the same hole. Ambassador asked how we were doing and went on his way.

[fred53]

You make a good point . However the situation should have been corrected far in advance of a back up that had four groups on 1 par three hole. Is there no one who could monitor such situations. If it is not the Ambassador's job then who?

really appreciate any suggestions you may have to speed up play. We notify the starter when things start to back up. We look for reasons of the backing up(i.e: ball hawkers, people hitting 2,3 or more balls from the tee in lieu of going to the drop area. If the groups are elderly with physical problems(many, many do)then you can't ask them to move faster.

Since you don't know what the situation was or have any viable solutions you might want to think up a solution in stead of just complaining.

I'm open to reasonable solutions, but with mostly elderly and beginners playing on the executive there is not a lot a person can do.

So you mention the problem should have been corrected far in advance...HOW? It takes 45 minutes to an hour to tour an executive course properly...a round should take 1.5 to 1.75 hours to play...if people have to wait and it still takes that amount of time then some folks are clearly better golfers and should understand the situation.

[Bogie Shooter]

really appreciate any suggestions you may have to speed up play. We notify the starter when things start to back up. We look for reasons of the backing up(i.e: ball hawkers, people hitting 2,3 or more balls from the tee in lieu of going to the drop area. If the groups are elderly with physical problems(many, many do)then you can't ask them to move faster.

Since you don't know what the situation was or have any viable solutions you might want to think up a solution in stead of just complaining.

I'm open to reasonable solutions, but with mostly elderly and beginners playing on the executive there is not a lot a person can do.

So you mention the problem should have been corrected far in advance...HOW? It takes 45 minutes to an hour to tour an executive course properly...a round should take 1.5 to 1.75 hours to play...if people have to wait and it still takes that amount of time then some folks are clearly better golfers and should understand the situation.

:BigApplause:

[e-flyer]

"You could go to any executive course in the Villages and find a couple dozen ball marks to fix. And I rarely land in a bunker that has no footprints in it. People are either ignorant of golf courtesy, or just plain lazy. you see."


ignorant, and lazy both apply. Heck, if the holes are backed up, take a minute when you get to the green, and repair the ball marks. I'm guessing I repair 2-3 minimum per hole. Better than just standing around or sitting in your cart. We pay for these courses, treat them better, and their condition will improve.

[Challenger]

really appreciate any suggestions you may have to speed up play. We notify the starter when things start to back up. We look for reasons of the backing up(i.e: ball hawkers, people hitting 2,3 or more balls from the tee in lieu of going to the drop area. If the groups are elderly with physical problems(many, many do)then you can't ask them to move faster.

Since you don't know what the situation was or have any viable solutions you might want to think up a solution in stead of just complaining.

I'm open to reasonable solutions, but with mostly elderly and beginners playing on the executive there is not a lot a person can do.

So you mention the problem should have been corrected far in advance...HOW? It takes 45 minutes to an hour to tour an executive course properly...a round should take 1.5 to 1.75 hours to play...if people have to wait and it still takes that amount of time then some folks are clearly better golfers and should understand the situation.

The main issue is the lack of understanding of "ready golf"

At the tee many will not leave carts and walk to the tee until all players in their group have teed off. Ready golf in fairways seldom used.
No reason while on green, unless playing some kind of match to wait for other players still not ready. Ready golf can be observed everwhere unless puting a player in danger.
Obviously this does not apply when playing some kind of match.

Playing more than one ball after a bad shot- should go to the drop area

playing after already reaching 3 or 4 over par.-pick a reasonable number.

Get in the cart and drive away from green rather than carrying on conversations before leaving.

Anyone who has played more than a few rounds on the Execs can tell you why play is slow and most of us understand that new players and older folks should be given some slack.
If no one ever provides some giudance they will never improve. Some are by nature inconsiderate.(probably same group who don't rake, fix ball marks etc)

There are many things that can be done if the management of the courses will act. In talking to a few of the ambasadors they indicate that they are not allowed to encourage people to keep up and maintain a reasonable rate of play.

It is not so much that we are all in a great hurry as it is the frustration and break of focus when there are two, three, and four groups waiting on one hole.

My last two rounds have taken 2.20 and 2.15 to play .On one of those we had to skip the 9th hole because it had become too dark to play.

This situation can be improved while showing respect to all golfers new and experenienced. In order to do so someone(management) has to act.

I'm all whined out!

[eweissenbach]

Back to "course conditions". Played Sweetgum yesterday and the greens were in terrible shape. Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest.

[mickey100]

The main issue is the lack of understanding of "ready golf"

At the tee many will not leave carts and walk to the tee until all players in their group have teed off. Ready golf in fairways seldom used.
No reason while on green, unless playing some kind of match to wait for other players still not ready. Ready golf can be observed everwhere unless puting a player in danger.
Obviously this does not apply when playing some kind of match.

Playing more than one ball after a bad shot- should go to the drop area

playing after already reaching 3 or 4 over par.-pick a reasonable number.

Get in the cart and drive away from green rather than carrying on conversations before leaving.

Anyone who has played more than a few rounds on the Execs can tell you why play is slow and most of us understand that new players and older folks should be given some slack.
If no one ever provides some giudance they will never improve. Some are by nature inconsiderate.(probably same group who don't rake, fix ball marks etc)

There are many things that can be done if the management of the courses will act. In talking to a few of the ambasadors they indicate that they are not allowed to encourage people to keep up and maintain a reasonable rate of play.

It is not so much that we are all in a great hurry as it is the frustration and break of focus when there are two, three, and four groups waiting on one hole.

My last two rounds have taken 2.20 and 2.15 to play .On one of those we had to skip the 9th hole because it had become too dark to play.

This situation can be improved while showing respect to all golfers new and experenienced. In order to do so someone(management) has to act.

I'm all whined out!

Well said. There is no way an executive course should take over 2 hours to play no matter how much of a beginner one is. My souse plays with some beginners, and they still end up waiting on every hole. They play ready golf, they pick up after double par, etc.

[mickey100]

"You could go to any executive course in the Villages and find a couple dozen ball marks to fix. And I rarely land in a bunker that has no footprints in it. People are either ignorant of golf courtesy, or just plain lazy. you see."


ignorant, and lazy both apply. Heck, if the holes are backed up, take a minute when you get to the green, and repair the ball marks. I'm guessing I repair 2-3 minimum per hole. Better than just standing around or sitting in your cart. We pay for these courses, treat them better, and their condition will improve.

I agree. Let's take better care of our courses.

[fred53]

The main issue is the lack of understanding of "ready golf"

At the tee many will not leave carts and walk to the tee until all players in their group have teed off. Ready golf in fairways seldom used.
No reason while on green, unless playing some kind of match to wait for other players still not ready. Ready golf can be observed everwhere unless puting a player in danger.
Obviously this does not apply when playing some kind of match.

Playing more than one ball after a bad shot- should go to the drop area

playing after already reaching 3 or 4 over par.-pick a reasonable number.

Get in the cart and drive away from green rather than carrying on conversations before leaving.

Anyone who has played more than a few rounds on the Execs can tell you why play is slow and most of us understand that new players and older folks should be given some slack.
If no one ever provides some giudance they will never improve. Some are by nature inconsiderate.(probably same group who don't rake, fix ball marks etc)

There are many things that can be done if the management of the courses will act. In talking to a few of the ambasadors they indicate that they are not allowed to encourage people to keep up and maintain a reasonable rate of play.

It is not so much that we are all in a great hurry as it is the frustration and break of focus when there are two, three, and four groups waiting on one hole.

My last two rounds have taken 2.20 and 2.15 to play .On one of those we had to skip the 9th hole because it had become too dark to play.

This situation can be improved while showing respect to all golfers new and experenienced. In order to do so someone(management) has to act.

I'm all whined out!

there is nothing to get people to sign up for and take the "good golf school" or read up on "ready golf" so in effect you have many people who just go out and play grass hockey.

If people aren't educated in golf etiquette and don't want to be then all of your great ideas(and you aren't the first to note what can be done)are falling on not only deaf ears, but ears that aren't forced to act as you describe.

[fred53]

Well said. There is no way an executive course should take over 2 hours to play no matter how much of a beginner one is. My souse plays with some beginners, and they still end up waiting on every hole. They play ready golf, they pick up after double par, etc.

how do you get beginners to learn the "proper" way to play when nothing is in place to make them learn?

Restating what we all feel is nice in that it pats the poster on the back, but if you have no ideas how to correct the situation your post(and no offense intended)doesn't add much value.

[Challenger]

there is nothing to get people to sign up for and take the "good golf school" or read up on "ready golf" so in effect you have many people who just go out and play grass hockey.

If people aren't educated in golf etiquette and don't want to be then all of your great ideas(and you aren't the first to note what can be done)are falling on not only deaf ears, but ears that aren't forced to act as you describe.

Right on Fred--- who is in charge. Course employees tell me that they are not allowed to enforce what most would consider reasonable rules of play.I honestly don't know if that statement is true or a misunderstanding. How do we get a better situation for all? To whom do we address concerns?

PS more suggestions
Print on back of Exec score cards -large print (currently in small print,really small at bottom front of card)


1 Reasonable play times
2 Keep in touch with group playing ahead( assuming it is also a foursome)
3 Reminders on Raking and Greens repairs
4 Have the guys/gals who patrol make friendly reminders to rake, repair and play ready golf.
This can be done in a friendly and considerate way.

Post same type of reminders at starter shacks-in full view
Ditto the first tee box.
Post reminders (small) on fairway exit polls= rake and repair , keep up pace.

Doing nothing will only allow a worsening situation. Usually what gets emphasis improves. We are not the first or only golf facilities to have these issues. This is definitely a management issue. It is one of the very few failures in management that I have seen in TV. :MOJE_whot:

[DonH57]

As a beginner I do my best to play "ready golf" and practice proper etiquette. If by chance someone is racing up behind me as I have seen others do I allow them to go ahead since I'm not as advanced as them. I can't count how many times I've gone out and start a round without anyone in front of me and by the time I'm at the 7th hole I see 4somes stacked up and it's getting late. Groups coming up behind me start leaving the course. I now see a general attitude of let's horseplay and don't worry that the ones behind us won't finish tonight. I have had a few experienced golfers help me here in the villages and yet I've also seen snobbery exhibited among others and that only hurts the game in my opinion.

[Bogie Shooter]

To whom do we address concerns?

:MOJE_whot:

Good suggestions...........posting here accomplishes nothing.
Contact:
Golf The Villages (http://golfthevillages.com/contactus.asp)

Golf & Country Club Administration Office
753-3396

Executive Courses fall under John Rohan, Recreation Director
Recreation Administration
3325 Wedgewood Lane
The Villages, FL 32162

Phone: 352-674-1800
Fax: 352-674-1805

[Mikeod]

One suggestion we have made is to make Good Golf School mandatory before making tee times on any course. The problem is that there is currently no way to monitor whether a player has attended or not, and how to handle renters.

Another suggestion was to change the focus on Good Golf School. My experience was that it focused way too much on the mechanism of getting a tee time and very little on care of the course and etiquette.The last time I attended, at least 2/3 of the time was spent on the tee time system and the last part only superficially and quickly addressed the other topics. One response to the suggestion was that people attend to find out about the tee time system and have less interest in the other topics. We suggested that the presentation be reversed so the course care happens first and the tee time system topic is last. I have not attended recently, so I don't know if that has occurred.

I play a lot by filling in groups. I am not shy about asking people diplomatically to repair divots and ball marks and smooth traps. I dislike the term "rake" because of all the instances I have seen where someone just drags the rake over their footprints without eliminating the depressions. I also remind them that they should smooth the gouge they make with their shot, not just their footprints.

Here is where the ambassadors could be more help. They have Good Golf Certificates that are to be handed out when they observe someone doing something to benefit the course. It could be repairing multiple ball marks, smoothing a bunker, sanding a divot. By issuing the certificate to that player, it reinforces the action for the player and for everyone else in the group. Sadly, I have encountered instance after instance where an ambassador has stopped by a group where some players are repairing multiple ball marks and done nothing. I have been assured by Golf Administration that they encourage ambassadors to hand these out and that they have handed out more each year, but I don't see it happening. Someone posted in an other thread that they only hand them out on the championship courses, but I was assured they hand them out on all courses. Again, my experience says otherwise.

[Russ_Boston]

I've only had one 'slow' round in the past 2 months or so. Most are about 1.5 to 1.75 hours (exec).


I played at Deer Island the other day and it took over 5.5 hours! No lie. Would have walked off but the company was good and my wife was playing well.


Conditions wise: Let's remember that Sweetgum and Mangrove are still very young. All other courses are starting the transition back to in-season Bermuda so it does get rough. I haven't noticed too many problem areas though on the execs.

[waynet]

could it be that there are too many tee times?

[DonH57]

could it be that there are too many tee times?

I always wondered how many tee times on a course in a day myself. I thought I remembered once on a related thread that it was stated there was a nine minute stager between tee offs. From what I've observed of a 4 some teeing off it's not possible to see that same 4 some move to the second hole in nine minutes unless they don't complete the hole. If i'm wrong in what I read someone please correct me. In my experiences I've never witnessed a 4 some complete a hole in 9 minutes and I've only been on the executive courses.

[fred53]

Right on Fred--- who is in charge. Course employees tell me that they are not allowed to enforce what most would consider reasonable rules of play.I honestly don't know if that statement is true or a misunderstanding. How do we get a better situation for all? To whom do we address concerns?

PS more suggestions
Print on back of Exec score cards -large print (currently in small print,really small at bottom front of card)


1 Reasonable play times
2 Keep in touch with group playing ahead( assuming it is also a foursome)
3 Reminders on Raking and Greens repairs
4 Have the guys/gals who patrol make friendly reminders to rake, repair and play ready golf.
This can be done in a friendly and considerate way.

Post same type of reminders at starter shacks-in full view
Ditto the first tee box.
Post reminders (small) on fairway exit polls= rake and repair , keep up pace.

Doing nothing will only allow a worsening situation. Usually what gets emphasis improves. We are not the first or only golf facilities to have these issues. This is definitely a management issue. It is one of the very few failures in management that I have seen in TV. :MOJE_whot:

but unfortunately I'm afraid it likely won't work...reason: right now the rules for the red or yellow stakes with green and white tops are posted in large print on the starters shack, at the first tee and on the bottom of every card...what some folks claim-I didn't see it...you can't call them liars as it will accomplish nothing...all you can do is remind them. The same applies to those looking for balls, shooting the breeze, marking scores at the green, parking their cart or bag 20 yds before the green, not putting out, etc. etc. etc.

It is what it is until:Good Golf School is mandatory(suggested by everyone who cares), the ability to escort those who overdo the "not playing of golf" becomes a reality.

Personally I don't mind waiting as I think it's great when those with disabilities caused by life don't move as fast as they used to. As for those who lie...nothing can be done as of now....*shrug*

[fred53]

One suggestion we have made is to make Good Golf School mandatory before making tee times on any course. The problem is that there is currently no way to monitor whether a player has attended or not, and how to handle renters.

Another suggestion was to change the focus on Good Golf School. My experience was that it focused way too much on the mechanism of getting a tee time and very little on care of the course and etiquette.The last time I attended, at least 2/3 of the time was spent on the tee time system and the last part only superficially and quickly addressed the other topics. One response to the suggestion was that people attend to find out about the tee time system and have less interest in the other topics. We suggested that the presentation be reversed so the course care happens first and the tee time system topic is last. I have not attended recently, so I don't know if that has occurred.

I play a lot by filling in groups. I am not shy about asking people diplomatically to repair divots and ball marks and smooth traps. I dislike the term "rake" because of all the instances I have seen where someone just drags the rake over their footprints without eliminating the depressions. I also remind them that they should smooth the gouge they make with their shot, not just their footprints.

Here is where the ambassadors could be more help. They have Good Golf Certificates that are to be handed out when they observe someone doing something to benefit the course. It could be repairing multiple ball marks, smoothing a bunker, sanding a divot. By issuing the certificate to that player, it reinforces the action for the player and for everyone else in the group. Sadly, I have encountered instance after instance where an ambassador has stopped by a group where some players are repairing multiple ball marks and done nothing. I have been assured by Golf Administration that they encourage ambassadors to hand these out and that they have handed out more each year, but I don't see it happening. Someone posted in an other thread that they only hand them out on the championship courses, but I was assured they hand them out on all courses. Again, my experience says otherwise.

but like many other suggestions those who slow it down the most will thank you for the award and continue doing business as usual. I could give out 4 awards to every single group and you will not see an improvement in the pitch marks or bunkers. How do I know? I've given out to whole groups who do the right thing...that didn't change their actions towards the things they don't care about and asking them to repair a pitch mark and then giving them the award is silly.

When playing golf is an afterthought and not the main focus for being on the course there is no quick fix to the lack of proper behavior concerning course conditions and slow play.

[waynet]

I cannot speak to the exec courses,I do not play them. On the championship courses I have a few thoughts on slow play. Some golfers play the wrong tees. Some have no concept of ready golf.Some should not be playing the courses,they are not good enough. But the golf course designs themselves lead to much of the slow play,particularly the condition and shapes of the sandtraps. Many of the bunkers front the greens meaning no run-up shots. Many of them are too big. Those of us who do rake them can spend over a minute raking after a shot.(think 9th hole greenside Caroline) why a bunker that large? Also far too many fairway traps that slow play. Pin positions on certain holes lead to multiple 3 putts. The design of these courses does nothing to help a senior golfer play faster. I think the opposite is true.

[eweissenbach]

Played Palmetto for the first time this morning (off and on in rain). What a great executive course. It replaces Bacall as my favorite exec. Only problem - on seven the foursome in front of us teed off and spent at least ten minutes retrieving balls from around the pond before hitting their second shots. Unbelievable!

[fred53]

I cannot speak to the exec courses,I do not play them. On the championship courses I have a few thoughts on slow play. Some golfers play the wrong tees. Some have no concept of ready golf.Some should not be playing the courses,they are not good enough. But the golf course designs themselves lead to much of the slow play,particularly the condition and shapes of the sandtraps. Many of the bunkers front the greens meaning no run-up shots. Many of them are too big. Those of us who do rake them can spend over a minute raking after a shot.(think 9th hole greenside Caroline) why a bunker that large? Also far too many fairway traps that slow play. Pin positions on certain holes lead to multiple 3 putts. The design of these courses does nothing to help a senior golfer play faster. I think the opposite is true.

with the Championship courses perhaps you are playing the wrong courses. I play the hole as it's set up and if, perchance I get into a bunker, or am improperly positioned on the green for that particular pin position I accept it as my mistake and do not blame the course. One sign of a "golfer" playing courses over their head is blaming the course.

As to "ready golf" it is not necessarily desirable on the Championship courses depending on the type of golf being played as there are penalties for playing out of turn(buy the $1 rule book).

The size of bunkers is determined by the difficulty of the hole(among other variables). If you don't have a shot which will carry you over the bunker then you've hit no. 2 for reasons not to play championship courses, or you could always practice a shot you are not comfortable with trying.

By your post you need work on your: putting, sand play(especially fairway)and lob shots...oh also the driver if you keep hitting it off line and into the fairway bunkers.

It is the true golfer who knows their limitations and plays to their strengths....while practicing to reduce their weaknesses....

[eweissenbach]

with the Championship courses perhaps you are playing the wrong courses. I play the hole as it's set up and if, perchance I get into a bunker, or am improperly positioned on the green for that particular pin position I accept it as my mistake and do not blame the course. One sign of a "golfer" playing courses over their head is blaming the course.

As to "ready golf" it is not necessarily desirable on the Championship courses depending on the type of golf being played as there are penalties for playing out of turn(buy the $1 rule book).

The size of bunkers is determined by the difficulty of the hole(among other variables). If you don't have a shot which will carry you over the bunker then you've hit no. 2 for reasons not to play championship courses, or you could always practice a shot you are not comfortable with trying.

By your post you need work on your: putting, sand play(especially fairway)and lob shots...oh also the driver if you keep hitting it off line and into the fairway bunkers.

It is the true golfer who knows their limitations and plays to their strengths....while practicing to reduce their weaknesses....

Very snarky post IMHO.

[Bogie Shooter]

Very snarky post IMHO.

It is what it is.
Blaming the course is like blaming your clubs.

[gpirate]

As a beginner I do my best to play "ready golf" and practice proper etiquette. If by chance someone is racing up behind me as I have seen others do I allow them to go ahead since I'm not as advanced as them. I can't count how many times I've gone out and start a round without anyone in front of me and by the time I'm at the 7th hole I see 4somes stacked up and it's getting late. Groups coming up behind me start leaving the course. I now see a general attitude of let's horseplay and don't worry that the ones behind us won't finish tonight. I have had a few experienced golfers help me here in the villages and yet I've also seen snobbery exhibited among others and that only hurts the game in my opinion.

Good post and after reading all these comments I am wondering how they could ever say this is the friendliest town.

[DonH57]

Good post and after reading all these comments I am wonderierr tng how they could ever say this is the friendliest town.

Thank you. As I said earlier I just started playing golf and hopefully when I get to a higher level of experience I'll remember to help a newcomer I see struggling.

[eweissenbach]

It is what it is.
Blaming the course is like blaming your clubs.

Just because someone says it, and you agree with it, does not make it "what it is".

[fred53]

Very snarky post IMHO.

only meant as reality. If you take it as snarky instead of reality perhaps you should re-think the whole golf thing.

When people complain and it's quite clear the problem is with them often they claim the person pointing out the reality of the situation is not being nice when in fact it is the person who can't face reality that has issues.

I am very honest in evaluating my own golf game and I suppose I expect everyone else to be. Obviously from your post many people are not honest in their self evaluation and I'm sorry that you can't be. Hopefully you find a course that plays into your problem areas.

[Bogie Shooter]

Just because someone says it, and you agree with it, does not make it "what it is".

You got opinions, I go opinions, we all got opinions!

[eweissenbach]

only meant as reality. If you take it as snarky instead of reality perhaps you should re-think the whole golf thing.

When people complain and it's quite clear the problem is with them often they claim the person pointing out the reality of the situation is not being nice when in fact it is the person who can't face reality that has issues.

I am very honest in evaluating my own golf game and I suppose I expect everyone else to be. Obviously from your post many people are not honest in their self evaluation and I'm sorry that you can't be. Hopefully you find a course that plays into your problem areas.

My golf game is fine, but thanks for your interest. Honesty is one thing, rudeness another. My problem area is who use the internet to tell others how much better they are than anyone else - and that is being honest.

[Bogie Shooter]

Just because someone says it, and you agree with it, does not make it "what it is".

I got an opinion, you got an opinion, we all got opinions!

[nitehawk]

This was a great thread - where i could find out conditions of the golf courses both in and out of tv -----it has now turned into a bunch of snarky remarks about opinions --- where is the moderator ????????

[fred53]

My golf game is fine, but thanks for your interest. Honesty is one thing, rudeness another. My problem area is who use the internet to tell others how much better they are than anyone else - and that is being honest.

as for being rude I believe you are assigning an attitude towards what I wrote because it upsets you. I'm sorry for that as I am not a rude person. If you don't like my assessment of your game then perhaps you should have left the parts out about "to many fairway bunkers, bunkers to deep, bunkers in front of the greens, etc. A golfer that knows how to extricate themselves from bunkers has no issues with them the way they are...you do...ergo...you don't have the game you think you do...ergo...you play above your abilities. Sorry that bothers you.

I never said I was better than anyone. If I happen to be able to produce shots you can not it's because I practice quite a bit and maybe(I said "maybe")have more ability than you. Does that make me better than you? No, but a more accomplished golfer due to my golf work ethic...sure...why not. I earned it. Are there those better at golf than myself? I'd be an idiot to think otherwise.

Do people respond to me like I did to you? Not usually...why? Because I don't complain about conditions that are the same for everyone and only those that don't know how to play under those conditions do complain.

So either practice or quit complaining. If that is offensive to you then you need to look inward for the blame...not outward. Have a fine day and I hope we don't meet on the course.

[DonH57]

On a lighter note I played Diablo this evening and even after all the rain today the course was excellent and I was able to finish the ninth as it started raining again.

[waynet]

Hey Fred,your response to my post was at best childish. nothing you wrote makes any sense. Nowhere did I blame the course for my errant shots. Ready golf has nothing to do with hitting out of turn. The size of a bunker has very little to do with the difficulty of a hole. And please do not tell me that I need practice,you know nothing,I repeat nothing about my golf game. The post was my response to the slow play that others were writing about. Perhaps you should practice less and take a remedial reading class.

[eweissenbach]

Hey Fred,your response to my post was at best childish. nothing you wrote makes any sense. Nowhere did I blame the course for my errant shots. Ready golf has nothing to do with hitting out of turn. The size of a bunker has very little to do with the difficulty of a hole. And please do not tell me that I need practice,you know nothing,I repeat nothing about my golf game. The post was my response to the slow play that others were writing about. Perhaps you should practice less and take a remedial reading class.

:agree:

[mickey100]

Fred, I'm assuming you didn't mean to, but your post came across a little high handed and judgmental. That happens sometimes on the internet - people take offense where none was intended. Let's all move on. This is a good thread, and we don't want to muck it up.

My question is - what are the championship courses that have the best conditions right now i.e. your top four? Thanks.

[Russ_Boston]

My golf game is fine, but thanks for your interest. Honesty is one thing, rudeness another. My problem area is who use the internet to tell others how much better they are than anyone else - and that is being honest.


I normally agree with many of your posts but..


The poster may not have been tackful but he/she brought out some great points. I would hate to see a whole village (60 + courses) where there weren't some very challenging courses and holes. Think Pelican: If you play from the blacks or gold you can't 'run' the ball up. If your game is currently at the 'run up' stage then get out and practice at courses that allow this action (i.e. not Pelican or Sweetgum or...) we have many. But please don't think that we need to de-golf design holes in TV.


Fast play: Has almost nothing to do with handicap of the golfer. So many ways to speed up play into the 9 minutes per hole. Not going to list them all as they have already been mentioned. I do try to get the first tee time every day to avoid problems but I do also play mid-afternoon and I just put my patience hat on.


Golf conditions: I'm not a great golfer (11 handicap and dropping) but I don't find the conditions bad for the most part. A few holes, yes, but overall not bad for the amount of play.

[TOTV Team]

Everyone please keep comments directed at topic and not at any user. When a thread deteriorates in that fashion we have to close it for the best interest of civility which we do not want or like to do. Thanks in advance.

[eweissenbach]

I normally agree with many of your posts but..


The poster may not have been tackful but he/she brought out some great points. I would hate to see a whole village (60 + courses) where there weren't some very challenging courses and holes. Think Pelican: If you play from the blacks or gold you can't 'run' the ball up. If your game is currently at the 'run up' stage then get out and practice at courses that allow this action (i.e. not Pelican or Sweetgum or...) we have many. But please don't think that we need to de-golf design holes in TV.


Fast play: Has almost nothing to do with handicap of the golfer. So many ways to speed up play into the 9 minutes per hole. Not going to list them all as they have already been mentioned. I do try to get the first tee time every day to avoid problems but I do also play mid-afternoon and I just put my patience hat on.


Golf conditions: I'm not a great golfer (11 handicap and dropping) but I don't find the conditions bad for the most part. A few holes, yes, but overall not bad for the amount of play.
I fully agree with you and you stated your case well and articulately.

[nitehawk]

the last week i played several exec courses -- some had holes closed for maintenance and others should have been closed ---played Yankee Clipper wed and this course is really a cow pasture. greens were nonexistent --could not tell the greens from the pasture-- please do not tell me more rain will help--- i have seen quite a change in tv in the last 10 years and it is not for the better---- wait until build out is complete and we can argue about if we need more playgrounds for our grandchildren or more pet parks ---- Thank God i do not play exec courses much -- i would give up golf if that is all tv had to offer -- but i will continue to play the over price champ courses when i can not travel -----golf for life for free :a040:

[waynet]

played Bonifay yesterday. What happened? Its a disgrace. Tees burned out, fairways awful the greens very spotty. I realize aeration done but the rest of the course is very bad. Its my favorite and I'm bummed out about it. We pay good money to play these "championship" courses,they should all be in better condition. How about putting some money back into the golf?

[Mikeod]

played Bonifay yesterday. What happened? Its a disgrace. Tees burned out, fairways awful the greens very spotty. I realize aeration done but the rest of the course is very bad. Its my favorite and I'm bummed out about it. We pay good money to play these "championship" courses,they should all be in better condition. How about putting some money back into the golf?
Haven't been on Bonifay, but I wonder if they are doing what they did in CA during the transition. Our club would withhold water throughout the course so the overseed would die quickly and not shade the bermuda. This left the course brown and the greens very inconsistently grassed. Them they aerated the greens and top dressed them. With all the overseed gone, they hit the course with a high nitrogen fertilizer and water to stimulate the bermuda base turf. It would take a few weeks, but the course recovered beautifully. There sure was some grousing during that period, however.