[Burgy]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

The Hall of Fame (HOF) announced the results of the 2022 election yesterday. Players need 75% of the votes. David Ortiz was the only player admitted. He had 77.9% of the votes. It was the last year on the ballot for Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds.

Do people think that Clemens and Bonds (and Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe) should be in the HOF?

I think they all have been punished enough. I don't know about Shoeless Joe but the others have been put through years of shame. MLB didn't catch them and there were probably others.

[kevinko05]

So...a pitcher on the juice and a batter the same...isnt that a wash?

[Regorp]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Good question. But isn't selection to the Hall of Fame based on your accomplishments on the field? Despite what they did off the field, the on-field accomplishments of Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle were monumental. Pete's gambling included betting on his OWN team and Shoeless Joe Jackson not only hit .375 (not bad for a guy trying to lose) in the 1919 World Series but was later found innocent of any complicity in throwing the series.

Clemens and Bonds? Again, monumental achievements on the field. They took drugs to enhance their performance--but how is that different from the rigorous training, diet and other practices that world-class athletes go through today? THOSE practices were unknown in days past and even when more advanced and modern training techniques became available many did not use them. It is said that Babe Ruth trained on beer and hot dogs. Should the accomplishments of today's baseball stars be denigrated because their predecessors did not have the advantage of such advanced training and medical knowledge? Sort of disingenuous, if you ask me.

Put all four into the Hall. With explanations of their (real and alleged) misdeeds as part of their record.

Bonds already had a hall of fame career before the use of enhancing drugs began, which should be a mitigating factor to get him in. Vet committee will right the BIG wrong!!

[flflowers]

Tony Oliva, Minnesota Twins just made it .... Finally, and well deserved after many many years!

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Notsocrates

Ortiz who rested positive ....IN
Bonds and Clemens who never tested positive (but suspected of using)...OUT

That simply is not true. Papi tested positive in 2003 during the time that samples were being collected by MLB and were supposed to be secret and anonymous. Bonds tested positive as well in 2003. Later, the secrecy was broken and names were linked to the positive tests. At the time the samples were obtained it was done to evaluate how big a problem steroids and other PEDs were in baseball, not to find specific users.

Clemens never tested positive on any released data. He was named by his personal trainer as a user. and he is listed in the report of Sen Mitchell He has vigorously denied use and even sued his accusers [settled out of court]

[Worldseries27]

Lets see,
1. Players are selected to hof by a vigilantee group of sportswriters who openly admit their personal biases affect their decisions which would disqualify them from any jury in the usa.
2. Mlb who actually employed the hof candidates sits back and allows this besirchment
to happen to their organization.
3. Same mlb organization doesen't have the moral certitude to declare world series titles vacant after establishing the guilt of " winners" in effect allowing 29 mlb owners to be defrauded by one other owner twice in recent years. They didn't want to wear the black eye of the necessary mea culpa . Why? You ask?
So their ratings and profits stay high with no further embarrassment in the public eye.
4. Mlb. Grow a pair. Police your own sport.
You benefitted from the steroids era and now throw it's participants under the busses driven by your media vassals. Pt barnum said it best.
" there's suckers ( us) born everyday.

[tvbound]

Let's be honest, the HOF is primarily a popularity contest and not based on achievements on the field. There's way too many already in, who were reprehensible human beings - but were liked by the voters.

[Worldseries27]

Originally Posted by tvbound

let's be honest, the hof is primarily a popularity contest and not based on achievements on the field. There's way too many already in, who were reprehensible human beings - but were liked by the voters.

again. The "voters" are not you or me. They're the biased media flacks aka baseball writers.
Mlb should be responsible for hof membership. Their sport, their employees, their responsibility.

[aa1949a]

And maybe DH,s .

[Escape Artist]

Originally Posted by blueash

Your criteria for inclusion may need some reconsideration. Big Papi was a confirmed steroid user as he tested positive in 2003. He of course said it must have been some OTC product he didn't know had steroid. Exactly the same claim that Bonds made that the cream he used must have had steroids.

Why did Ortiz get in? Because people liked him. All those voters who refuse to let the greatest home run hitter in because of steroids are hypocrites. Smiling pleasant steroid user.. ok. Unpleasant, not okay.

The HOF is full of great baseball players some of whom were horrible people. Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle were alcoholics. Landis as commissioner made sure that no Black players were signed by MLB. It is not a coincidence that Jackie Robinson was able to break the color barrier shortly after Landis died.

Clemens may be the greatest pitcher ever. Multiple Cy Youngs before he ever took a steroid. Again his personality leaves a lot of people cold.

Pete Rose, another unlikable player. There is no accusation that he ever bet on baseball as a player. He is still the all time hit leader.

Not having the all time hit leader, the all time HR hitter, the single season highest HR hitter and one of if not the greatest pitcher ever in the HOF is a sad outcome. Unless they are going to go back and review the character of every person in the HOF with our retrospectoscope and kick out those who don't measure up to 2022 standards, they should vote in Bonds, Clemens, and Rose.

You have absolutely no idea how many players used steroids and other PEDs in the years up to and after they were banned. Included in the list of those who admitted drug use are Goose Gossage, Mike Schmidt, Hank Aaron, all in the HOF.

You're wrong on everything! The reason Ortiz was questionable was because it was his accomplishments as a DH, not as a first baseman, that gave him consideration. I don't know how he went in (which position) but if it's as a DH, he may be the first.

Bonds' use of PEDs is well-documented even though he wasn't caught when he was playing. Read the excellent, non-fiction book "Game of Shadows" by the investigative journalists who prove he was using them and did it deliberately, not by "mistake" as other players claim. He did it out of ego, vanity and to break McGuire's single season HR record and then Hank Aaron's all-time record. He's a disgusting human being and a narcissistic sociopath whose never shown any regret of remorse for what he did.

However, like Clemens, an argument can be made for his career being HOF worthy before his PEDs use but we can only speculate when he began doing it since he's never admitted it and apologized. I think if he had he'd be in no matter how odious of a person he is.

Please don't compare things like alcoholism with PEDs use. If they judged baseball players' worthiness for the HOF on excessive drinking there'd be nobody in there! Hank Aaron and some others admitted to taking "greenies" which are amphetamines and helped them cope with the long season, road trips, etc. Plus, there wasn't a coherent formal policy in MLB on drug use until the early 1990's.