Golf Course Conditions - Per Eric Van Gorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Golf Course Conditions - Per Eric Van Gorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Notices

» Site Navigation
Home Page The Villages Maps The Villages Activities The Villages Clubs The Villages Book Healthcare Rentals Real Estate Section Classified Section The Villages Directory Home Improvement Site Guidelines Advertising Info Register Now Video Tutorials Frequently Asked Questions
» Newsletter Signup
» Premium Tower
» Advertisements
» Trending News
» Tower Sponsors




















» Premium Sponsors
» Banner Sponsors
» Advertisements
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 06-01-2016, 08:02 PM
Polar Bear's Avatar
Polar Bear Polar Bear is online now
Sage
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,872
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcrazorbackfan View Post
...I really wish that "free executive golf" would be done away with; start charging greens fees for the execs...
That would really upset me if I thought there was any chance of it happening.

Almost all courses go through occasional rough stretches. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the current system.

  #22  
Old 06-02-2016, 07:09 AM
Dr Winston O Boogie jr's Avatar
Dr Winston O Boogie jr Dr Winston O Boogie jr is offline
Sage
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,108
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeod View Post
C'mon Doc. Comparing Pebble Beach to TV? $495 greens fee! If played as frequently as you describe, imagine the resources they have available to keep the course in the condition you experienced. BTW, when I played PB, it was in the middle of a drought like exists now in CA. They had no grass on the fairway and were watering the greens and tees only. No reduction in fees, though. Plus, the quality of player who goes to PB is far superior to the beginners and novice players who frequent TV courses. Makes a big difference in maintenance costs.

The number of rounds played in TV has increased significantly every year, surpassing 2 million in 2015. Although they have added courses, those of us who have been here for 10 years or more will confirm that it gets harder every year to get desired tee times on desired courses. Each year you have to increase the number of courses and widen the time range on requests in order to avoid being shut out.

The organization of the maintenance program in TV is exactly as it should be. If we follow your logic in the previous post, then any large company or corporation should not utilize suppliers or sub-contractors and should do it all themselves. With all the courses to be maintained, it only makes sense to contract it out to companies that do this as their sole business activity. This is not the easy way out. It is the most efficient. Eric and GMS manage the contractors rather than manage the mass of individuals that would be required by your example.

Every year we go through "Miserable May" as the courses recover from the high season play and overseeding followed by the necessary aeration. And every year they get back to good condition.
The comparison is valid depending on the income and the acreage being maintained. And executive golf course wth virtually no fairways and only nine greens should cost much, much less than an eighteen hole par 72 course.

I agree, I've seen Pebble during a drought and they water and maintain the greens only. With our executive courses they don't have much more than the greens to maintain. It's the greens that are the problem here.

As I stated before, if we knew what percentage of the total amenity fees collected goes toward exec golf, we would know how much we each pay. Unless we know that number, we don't know what we pay to play the execs.

While I can certainly understand courses getting damaged from a high amount of play, like I said, if they're getting that much play, they should be getting more income. And there is no excuse for the condition of the greens that I've seen. Like I've stated so far I've seen deplorable and horrendous. No amount of play should result in the condition that we currently have.

I don't know the income or budgets for these courses, but I still maintain that having the maintenance done in house rather than contracting it out would yield better results.
__________________
The Beatlemaniacs of The Villages meet every Friday 10:00am at the O'Dell Recreation Center.

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson to William Hamilton, April 22, 1800.
Sponsored Links
  #23  
Old 06-02-2016, 07:20 AM
Dr Winston O Boogie jr's Avatar
Dr Winston O Boogie jr Dr Winston O Boogie jr is offline
Sage
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,108
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcrazorbackfan View Post
I totally agree on your statement "you get what you pay for". I really wish that "free executive golf" would be done away with; start charging greens fees for the execs - that would probably stop enough play to where the execs could be closed on a weekly rotating basis to get them back in shape and keep them in shape. Do I care that charging executive green fees would stop people from playing golf? Nope. It would stop a lot of the unfilled divots, unrepaired ball marks and unraked traps.
First of all, that would entail breaking a contract with 120,000 people. I think that the developer might have a bit of a problem unless they lowered the amenity fee by a percentage equal to the percentage that goes toward these courses.

Secondly, as I have stated with so many more residents TV is gaining more in amenity fees so they should be able to budget more for proper maintenance.

It seems that we have hundreds, if not thousands of employees in TV that do very little. Guards at some of the gates, some rec centers have more people than needed, greeters in the sales departments, yet, the golf courses are not being maintained.

I don't know the income and the budgets so I won't jump to any conclusions, but it's obvious that some people not doing their jobs or money is being spent in the wrong places.

I'd like to see annual dues and no green fees at some of the country clubs. That is how most private and semi-private clubs work up north. We're told that we're members at all of these country clubs but what does that really mean? We get to pay the same green fee as everyone else. We get to eat in the restaurants that are pen to the general public? It's very easy to give away something that is worthless.
__________________
The Beatlemaniacs of The Villages meet every Friday 10:00am at the O'Dell Recreation Center.

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson to William Hamilton, April 22, 1800.
Golf Course Conditions - Per Eric Van Gorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance
  #24  
Old 06-02-2016, 08:37 AM
Polar Bear's Avatar
Polar Bear Polar Bear is online now
Sage
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,872
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Golf Course Conditions - Per Eric Van Gorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr View Post
...I'd like to see annual dues and no green fees at some of the country clubs...
Agree. At least as an option.
  #25  
Old 06-02-2016, 02:01 PM
Bogie Shooter Bogie Shooter is offline
Sage
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 13,310
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waynet View Post
for ddharold...I have tried many times to get an answer why not new grasses and have NEVER got an answer. Doc is correct in everything he says. Mike will always defend the ancient practices of maintaining these courses. Palmer is still closed, anyone know why or is it still a secret. Only May are you kidding me? Our Champ courses are not good and rarely are good. Played World Woods today now thats what we should expect all the time not excuse after excuse.
Are there homes for sale there?
__________________
The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it. George Orwell.
“Only truth and transparency can guarantee freedom”, John McCain
  #26  
Old 06-02-2016, 03:36 PM
JGVillages JGVillages is offline
Veteran member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: TV Calumet Grove
Posts: 764
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeod View Post
C'mon Doc. Comparing Pebble Beach to TV? $495 greens fee! If played as frequently as you describe, imagine the resources they have available to keep the course in the condition you experienced. BTW, when I played PB, it was in the middle of a drought like exists now in CA. They had no grass on the fairway and were watering the greens and tees only. No reduction in fees, though. Plus, the quality of player who goes to PB is far superior to the beginners and novice players who frequent TV courses. Makes a big difference in maintenance costs.

The number of rounds played in TV has increased significantly every year, surpassing 2 million in 2015. Although they have added courses, those of us who have been here for 10 years or more will confirm that it gets harder every year to get desired tee times on desired courses. Each year you have to increase the number of courses and widen the time range on requests in order to avoid being shut out.

The organization of the maintenance program in TV is exactly as it should be. If we follow your logic in the previous post, then any large company or corporation should not utilize suppliers or sub-contractors and should do it all themselves. With all the courses to be maintained, it only makes sense to contract it out to companies that do this as their sole business activity. This is not the easy way out. It is the most efficient. Eric and GMS manage the contractors rather than manage the mass of individuals that would be required by your example.

Every year we go through "Miserable May" as the courses recover from the high season play and overseeding followed by the necessary aeration. And every year they get back to good condition.
Only "Miserable May"??? The courses have been in "Transition" since mid-March when the warmer weather allowed the Bermuda to start to come in and take back over from the winter overseed. Now we have Miserable May Aerification with Greens recovering slowly, usually decent by July. Then we have "Miserable August" Aerification with decent recovery expected by October, then it is time to overseed. With a good overseed recovery may come late in the year. I say "good overseed" because in the 10+ years here I have seen only a few. Then hopefully a few months of decent conditions and we are back to spring transition again. I have been a member at 2 Florida Golf Clubs prior to moving here. The last was Riverwood GC in Port Charlotte. We went through a similar annual ritual as described above until (13 years ago) we changed to Champion grass for our Greens. No overseeding and transition issues. These modern grasses have been available for decades, and new and improve strains have been developed on an ongoing basis. Why The Villages decides to stay with "old" grass technology, when at least 6 of the 12 Championship Courses could have grass that does not require overseeding, is curious.
  #27  
Old 06-02-2016, 03:41 PM
rubicon rubicon is offline
Email Reported As Spam
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13,707
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Well some of you posters must have forgotten the tagline associated with moving to "The Villages" "Live like a millionaire on your retirement savings".......................................... ..

Some of you must have forgotten that the agreement "amenities bundled together for a set amenities fee (PR)that only went up with a CPI increase and/or as AFDR which is the max amenity + CPI. all homeowners (sites) pay an amenity fee."

To even suggest charging a green fee for executive courses and/or an annual fee for championships courses is proposing a Faustian Bargain.

Clearly either because of pressures within or greed or both the tension between amenity fees and amenities is already too taut

As stated all amenities are bundled. You don't get to choose what amenities you want and pay for each separately. Use or lose

I have some questions concerning amenitiy fees that I addressed to both the POA and the District and never received an acceptable response.

My advice is tread very careful on this subject ( (amenity fees) and pay close attention to the politics surrounding its application.

As to the executive golf courses this same situation has existed every spring for the 10 years I have lived here despite the fact that people were fired and new contractors hired.

Personal Best Regards:
  #28  
Old 06-02-2016, 07:40 PM
waynet waynet is offline
Gold member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,056
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

JG Villages I totally agree with all you said. The shame is it would not cost them any extra money to convert.
  #29  
Old 06-02-2016, 09:26 PM
Mikeod's Avatar
Mikeod Mikeod is offline
Sage
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 4,964
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waynet View Post
for ddharold...I have tried many times to get an answer why not new grasses and have NEVER got an answer. Doc is correct in everything he says. Mike will always defend the ancient practices of maintaining these courses. Palmer is still closed, anyone know why or is it still a secret. Only May are you kidding me? Our Champ courses are not good and rarely are good. Played World Woods today now thats what we should expect all the time not excuse after excuse.
LOL. If you ask Eric about me, he will tell you I don't always defend the maintenance practices here. I am on a committee that meets with Eric as well as GMS representatives on a quarterly basis to discuss maintenance of the executive courses. And we are not complimentary a lot of the time. Interesting that TPC Sawgrass is replacing the ultradwarf bermuda on all its greens this summer. The information I got at The Players is that they are putting in a dwarf bermuda. The course is closed until November to get it done. That's a lot of revenue lost, so they must have a good agronomic reason for doing it.

I enjoy our discussions and appreciate and understand your concerns. What I tend to respond to are hyperbolic posts that unfairly, IMO, denigrate the efforts I know for a fact are being made to maintain the courses. We can certainly discuss how effective they are.
__________________
"the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
  #30  
Old 06-03-2016, 07:27 AM
waynet waynet is offline
Gold member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,056
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Mike is correct TPC is replacing greens. They are going from Miniverde Bermuda to Tifeagle Bermuda because it will hold up to damp ,cold winters better. Interesting is that they will reopen for play in November so closed for 6 months. How long was Tierra closed for or the Hacienda 9 or the Glenview 9 and really did anyone notice a difference?
Closed Thread

Tags
golf, maintenance, courses, conditions, saddlebrook

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:45 PM.