[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by jrref

I'm an engineer and have researched this topic extensively and I don't know why a filter & softener system from Nova can cost about $1,600 vs many more expensive ones $2,500 and up.

That said, if you compare two filter/softener systems with the same specs, why does one cost dramatically more than the other in many cases? Maybe the warrenty?

The first problem is that you are an engineer, trained to be bound by the laws physics, chemistry, and few other immutable rules set by mother nature. so are my brothers and my dad. . . they all struggle with behavioral finance as well. ..

So you are looking at your problem from a linear, laws understanding, and humans and behavioral economics doesn't fit into that paradigm, at all. The reason could be unrelated to cost or quality or warranty.

At the end of the analysis, which would you buy and how much do you want to spend for someone else to install or install it yourself. . . that's it. The price differential is what it is. .

not being critical, just seen the tendency of many engineers struggle with that and very similar issues. .

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

The first problem is that you are an engineer, .................................................. .............................................. the tendency of many engineers struggle with that and very similar issues. .

Ouch

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

Ouch

I call 'em as I see'em

[lawgolfer]

Originally Posted by jrref

As far as water softeners are concerned, you are correct in that the flow rate should not change given the size of the tank but as also mentioned, depending on the water softener size and flow rate through the softener, these variables will determine how efficiently the water will be softened by the softener and how many times the tank needs to be cleaned with the brine solution. Do you realize you can use as much as 50 gallons of water when the softener is in it's regeneration cycle? So more cycles is not better. It's also possible to have too much water flow where the softener is not be able to "keep-up" and the water not softened the desired amount. The chemical reaction in the softener tank has to have enough time to complete so the softener has to be sized to the anticipated water flow rate through it. Finally, the size of the brine tank is only as large as the amount of brine needed to clean the resin in the softener. The Nova brine tank may be physically larger than the tank in the All-in-one units but the volume of brine is similar.

As far as the flow rate and pressure drop when installing water filters, according to my research, 20 inch filters will have more surface area for the water to flow. So 20 inch water filters should be able to run at twice the flow rate for the same pressure drop as a 10 inch water filter with the same filtration technology. That said, if you want to change the filters less often and guarantee better water flow rate throughout the life of the filter, then it's best to go with the 20 inch cannister.
Here is one reference:
Most Common Water Filter and Water Treatment Questions - WaterFilters.NET.

At the end of the day, you are comparing a do-it-yourself option to a non-do-it-yourself option. There is no right or wrong. All companies have there "complaints and problem installs". I can tell you stories I've heard about most systems installed here in the Villages. There is no perfect company.

I believe the Nova filter and softener is specifically designed for the typical water usage of homes here in the Villages. Given the number of systems installed and the length of time here in the Villages, and the convenience they offer, gives a lot of credibility to the integrity of the company.

Unless a filter is full of sediment, the only restriction on the quantity of water that enters the house is the size of the pipe. A functioning filter, whether 10" or 20", sediment or charcoal, will always pass enough water to fill the pipes in a Villages house and at the normal pressure.

Some people buy Mercedes and others buy Fords. Either one will get you where you want to go. Some people spend thousands on reverse osmosis water systems instead of hundreds on canister filters and salt based water softeners. If you want a decent system consisting of a softener and filters, and have it installed, buy the Nova. If you want to save a few dollars, buy a Rheem or GE softener at Home Depot and the iSpring filter, and install them yourself. If not, Home Depot will set you up with a licensed plumber and guarantee his work. Another option is to hire one of the many local "handymen" to do the job. If you are not going to be changing the filters yourself, buy the 20" model. If you are going to change the filters yourself, you'll be a lot happier if you buy the 10" model. If you don't want to, or are not able to, drag a couple of 25 lb bags of salt home from Ace Hardware once or twice a year, hire a handyman.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

The first problem is that you are an engineer, trained to be bound by the laws physics, chemistry, and few other immutable rules set by mother nature. so are my brothers and my dad. . . they all struggle with behavioral finance as well. ..

So you are looking at your problem from a linear, laws understanding, and humans and behavioral economics doesn't fit into that paradigm, at all. The reason could be unrelated to cost or quality or warranty.

At the end of the analysis, which would you buy and how much do you want to spend for someone else to install or install it yourself. . . that's it. The price differential is what it is. .

not being critical, just seen the tendency of many engineers struggle with that and very similar issues. .

I hear what you are saying but I'm not sure I agree but it's your opinion and that's OK.

I believe all this discussion has at least given readers a better understanding of water filtration and softening and some of the options to purchase and install a system.

There are a lot of home improvment projects that myself and other's here have researched extensively and had a lot of experience with. This is why some of us spend a lot of time sharing on some of these threads in an effort to help clear up misinformation so readers can make a more informed decision.

Anyone can Google and watch YouTube videos on a specific topic but in my opinion, experience is the most valuable tool when making a decision.

The one thing I want to make sure everyone understands is you can always find a "less than desirable" review of some company performing some service. No company is perfect and we often don't get the whole story. So it's best to get the facts, check out several companies as best you can, look at All the reviews and come to decision.

As far as DIY or hire a professional, this decision depends on your skill set, the amount of your own time you want to personally spend, cost, and your tolerance for risk.

Hope all this discussion helps.

[ton80]

[Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy View Post
The first problem is that you are an engineer, trained to be bound by the laws physics, chemistry, and few other immutable rules set by mother nature. so are my brothers and my dad. . . they all struggle with behavioral finance as well. ..

So you are looking at your problem from a linear, laws understanding, and humans and behavioral economics doesn't fit into that paradigm, at all. The reason could be unrelated to cost or quality or warranty.

At the end of the analysis, which would you buy and how much do you want to spend for someone else to install or install it yourself. . . that's it. The price differential is what it is. .

not being critical, just seen the tendency of many engineers struggle with that and very similar issues.

QUOTE=jrref;2340439]I hear what you are saying but I'm not sure I agree but it's your opinion and that's OK.

I believe all this discussion has at least given readers a better understanding of water filtration and softening and some of the options to purchase and install a system.

There are a lot of home improvement projects that myself and other's here have researched extensively and had a lot of experience with. This is why some of us spend a lot of time sharing on some of these threads in an effort to help clear up misinformation so readers can make a more informed decision.

Anyone can Google and watch YouTube videos on a specific topic but in my opinion, experience is the most valuable tool when making a decision.

The one thing I want to make sure everyone understands is you can always find a "less than desirable" review of some company performing some service. No company is perfect and we often don't get the whole story. So it's best to get the facts, check out several companies as best you can, look at All the reviews and come to decision.

As far as DIY or hire a professional, this decision depends on your skill set, the amount of your own time you want to personally spend, cost, and your tolerance for risk.

Hope all this discussion helps.[/QUOTE]

SportsGuy why did you try to denigrate Engineers just because your family includes Engineers? My job for many years was to do initial planning for Refinery Projects in the areas of Energy Balance and Water Treatment of all types of water systems. The analyses and recommendations included the financials costs and returns as well as the engineering and reliability aspects. The Board of Directors including the Chairmen of ExxonMobil often started in Engineering initially.
Considering my background I will answer your question in Bold above:

1. At the end of the analysis, which would you buy
I decided to buy the Nova Filtration system with a Reverse Osmosis Filter
for the drinking water and ice maker. We decided to postpone any softener until we had experience with the filtered water for washing and bathing.
Our experience is that the filter works for us and we do not need a Softener.
The Reverse Osmosis unit reduced the dissolved minerals in our drinking and ice maker water. It also can remove bacteria and dissolved chemicals such as the "Forever Chemicals" etc. If there were solvents dumped into the groundwater the RO should remove them. RO's are being installed in municipal water systems in NC to remove forever chemicals from river water and solvents form well water.
I interviewed Pelican as part of the "Welcome Wagon" barrage. I sent him packing when he tried to show the "bad Stuff " in TV water by adding citric acid to a glass of drinking water. The resulting frothing of escaping CO2 was supposed to be bad stuff in the water when it really was acidifying the water to release CO2 from the bicarbonates in the drinking water. High School Chemistry.

2. how much do you want to spend for someone else to install or install it yourself
I decided to contract Nova to install the system since they know their
system and I was working 50% time on international consulting work. At other homes, I installed cartridge filter systems for well water and filter systems on irrigation systems.

. . that's it. The price differential is what it is. .and NOVA costs are reasonable and much less expensive than Pelican or Kinetico

Now for some general thoughts on the subject of Softeners to add to the information that jrref provided in his response.
1. A softener is an Ion Exchange water treater. Your potable water goes through a filter system of both mechanical filters to remove suspended solids and an activated carbon bed to remove any residual free Chlorine disinfectant that was added by the water company. Free chlorine would damage the ion exchange resin.
The Softener itself contains ion exchange resin which has been regenerated with either sodium chloride (Na Cl) or potassium chloride ( KCL). As your potable water goes through the softener, Calcium ions are removed and replaced by either Na or K ions. So a softener can add sodium to the water if it is sodium salt regenerated resin. This is fundamental chemistry.

2. What is bad about "salt"? Salt is a basic name that is applied to many compounds. The bad salt is really the Sodium ion that is part of Sodium Chloride NaCl in saltwater.

3. What do aquarium "salinity Testers" measure? I believe that they are measuring the density or conductivity, etc. of the water and NOT Sodium content. Since the softener removes Calcium ions and replaces them with Sodium ions there probably is no real change in the water density or conductivity so it looks like no salt is added...but it is exchanged and Sodium content has increased.
Also the TV potable water has a low dissolved solids content of say 300 PPM whereas Seawater is more like 30,000+ PPM . I looked but did not find a definitive and clear answer. However, I am sure that NOVA knows the answer.

[jimbo2012]

Salt based softeners do add a small amount of salt to water, we recommend using potassium.
Since potassium chloride contains potassium, a nutrient known to help plants grow, they are considered more environmentally friendly than sodium chloride.
The backwash cycle will not harm grass or landscape like salt
This type of soft water will also be good for watering household plants, which is not recommended for water softened with sodium chloride.

A salt based system may have a minor effect on blood pressure
Also potassium can affect certain heart issues.
Check with your Dr if you have a heart related issue

However, potassium is more expensive than salt at the stores 2X

TDS total disolved solids here average about 200PPM, the only way to reduce TDS is to add a Reverse osmosis unit.

One last point Hard water does not have any harmful effect so a softener is not mandatory,
it an option.

The most important addition is the Nova Whole house water filter only $695, this should be a priority.

[Rderspamer]

Are you interested in a free, used Puronics system? You pick it up and install. It needs service.

[bsloan1960]

Originally Posted by dori2002

Stay away from NOVA. You have been warned.

Did you post this simply to see a bunch of people reply to it? Your post has no value, other than to generate replies. How about taking 17 additional seconds and explain why you have issued this warning???

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by bsloan1960

Did you post this simply to see a bunch of people reply to it? Your post has no value, other than to generate replies. How about taking 17 additional seconds and explain why you have issued this warning???

Can't explain issues with a paid advertiser..........."you" will get kicked off the site.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

Can't explain issues with a paid advertiser..........."you" will get kicked off the site.

If you tell us in a factual way what happened without trashing the advertiser, you should be OK. Every service provider has "slip-ups" but what's important is working with them and see if they rectify the situation. Given Nova Filter's reputation, personally working with them and history here in the Villages, I find it hard to believe your feelings about them. When I had a small problem they were very responsive and corrected the issue right away.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by jrref

............., you should be OK. ............

u would hope so

[jrref]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

u would hope so

Here is an example:

I had a neighbor who had a whole house water filter installed by a company here in the Villages. All was good but about a month or two later they had a large flood in their garage because the filter failed. My neighbor was very upset and immediately blamed the filter company and talked about how bad it was. Upon investigation it was found that my neighbor's water heater expansion tank failed the water pressure in the house was dangerously high and caused the failure. My neighbor didn't do any kind of maintenance on their water heater and because of the very high pressure, the water heater was also found to be leaking.

A different neighbor decided to change the filters themselves and dropped one of them which created a micro crack in the plastic filter housing. Subsequently the filter leaked.

So the point is without knowing what actually happened, it's disingenuous to just make a statement.

[Spartan86]

Originally Posted by HJBeck

Does your whole house filter catch very much?

These are my recently changed Nova filters after just over one year and approximately 25000 gallons - I believe that is the recommended change interval give or take a few thousand. The right is 20 micron, then 10 and then the carbon filter. I live in the Marsh Bend area, 2019 build. I did notice in a Jerry and Linda video they changed theirs and they did not look as dirty. I believe they are in Dunedin. FWIW