[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

It WOULD be nice if we could outlaw lunatics. Just outlawing lunatic drivers on the local roads would be a GIANT step for humanity. keeping large numbers of lunatics in an asylum would be a great idea. Some could be helped. But, we would ALL have to pay increased taxes for that, probably property taxes, and people would be very reluctant to do that.
.......My opinion is to remove easy access for the LUNATICS to acquire their favorite weapon of choice - the semi-automatic rifle. Yes, it has been pointed out that in total there are more mass murders with pistols than semi-auto
rifles. A lot of the mass shootings with pistols are spur-of-the-moment decisions and the pistol is available and easier to hide than a rifle. When a LUNATIC takes the time to plan out his (most are men) mass attack they pick a soft target crowd and they use their "weapon of choice" - the AR-15- style rifle.
.........It is easier to stop the US sales of AR-15-style weapons than trying to outlaw LUNATICS. Also, making laws to restrict magazine size to 5 rounds would be easier. Making the lunatic be at least 21 years old to buy a semi-auto rifle would also be relatively easy and effective.
........The problem of mass murder events is increasing and will continue. At some level of DEATHS, US citizens will be convinced to go against the will and obscene profits of the gun manufacturers.

It would be really nice if you'd start your own thread and not hijack this one. Kindly stay on topic. For this thread it is "What did the founding fathers consider arms".

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

The FBI, DOJ and CDC all say you are wrong and have the data to prove that handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters. I think we'd all appreciate it if you'd do your homework before making outrageously false claims.

If you really want to solve the problem of mass shootings and at this point I'm beginning to doubt that because you are not taking the solutions seriously. Call out the media for glorifying these evil deeds. Demand they stop giving the killer the notoriety they seek. Encourage everyone to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, get effective training and stop shooters where they stand. Take away their fame and take away their "high score" and the motivation disappears. Why aren't you doing something about this?

Who is talking about open carry? Half of our states, 25, are now Constitutional Carry. Florid is teed up to also be Constitutional Carry. Armed citizens stopped armed criminals 2.5 million times last year. it is estimated that 50-75% of those encounters saved a life. Isn't that awesome!

There is a huge irony here.

Every time a mass shooting occurs, four things happen. 1). Media histrionics blow the entire thing up so out of proportion that it dominates the air and print media for weeks. Not just the shooting but of course vilifying the weapon, psychoanalyzing the shooter, and of course endless interviews of the bereaved, etc. etc. ad endless nauseam. Which then leads to 2). Copycat shooters. Studies have shown that anywhere from 50% to 80% of these shootings are copycat crimes. 1 and 2 together of course produces 3. Anti - Second Amendment political types which commandeer every camera, microphone and reporter within grabbing distance to thunder forth their HATRED OF ALL THINGS GUN and call for, in varying degrees, anything from limitation to outright banning of specific, or all, firearms.

But then comes 4. And 4 follows 1 through 3 as inevitably as water running downhill. Law-abiding folks buy up guns and ammunition like it was going out of style. Gun and ammo factories running 24/7/365 cannot keep up with the demand. This seemed to get into gear in all seriousness on about November 2008, which was the first real gun/ammo shortage I remember. And with each succeeding sequence of events 1 through 3, #4 seems to get worse. And not just guns and ammo; but reloading supplies as well. I did some reloading before coming here. New brass in the popular calibers was hard to find (fortunately I had a lot of old stuff) and magnum pistol primers were scarce as hen's teeth. And buying ammo off the shelves? Depending on where we were in the latest cycle--forget it. Oh, you could find the odd box of Romanian or Russian ammo (if you could put up with the corrosion and spotty performance it caused) but top-shelf American stuff was, again depending on where we were in the cycle, nonexistent.

The numbers are staggering. A CNN article , dated June 4, 2021 , stated the following: "There is no government or national database of gun sales, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation keeps track of pre-sale background checks, an indicator that’s been soaring to record highs.

In March, the FBI reported almost 4.7 million background checks – the most of any month since the agency started keeping track more than 20 years ago, and a whopping 77% increase over March 2019."

The interesting thing is that this report is just the tip of the iceberg; that 77% increase over March 2019 was just the LATEST increase. Background checks and resulting gun ownership has been skyrocketing in just about the same way for the past 14 years. Ther is no accurate count but I've seen estimates that, in the last 14 years, as many as one hundred MILLION guns have been sold to law-abiding Americans. That, folks, is one hell of a lot of guns.

Amazing! The histrionics of the anti-gun folks has done more to put guns into the hands of average Americans than any other one thing. Ever.

Ironic, isn't it?

[Taltarzac725]

Law-abiding people buying guns is not the problem. The problem is usually young men getting them so that they can go on shooting sprees. Everything under the sun should be attempted to stop these tragedies from happening. And I had neighbors across the street from me here in the Villages who lost their 14 year old granddaughter in one of these mass murders. (They moved out of the Villages to be near surviving family members). These should be covered by the press so that people will start taking actions to prevent them from continuing. Some gun controls are needed along with red flag laws and especially community awareness of potentials for problems. Empathy and planning for the future are critical.

I think the Founding Fathers would be doing similar things as they were very practical men very well versed in history especially Roman and Greek history.

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

There is a huge irony here.

Every time a mass shooting occurs, four things happen. 1). Media histrionics blow the entire thing up so out of proportion that it dominates the air and print media for weeks. Not just the shooting but of course vilifying the weapon, psychoanalyzing the shooter, and of course endless interviews of the bereaved, etc. etc. ad endless nauseam. Which then leads to 2). Copycat shooters. Studies have shown that anywhere from 50% to 80% of these shootings are copycat crimes. 1 and 2 together of course produces 3. Anti - Second Amendment political types which commandeer every camera, microphone and reporter within grabbing distance to thunder forth their HATRED OF ALL THINGS GUN and call for, in varying degrees, anything from limitation to outright banning of specific, or all, firearms.

But then comes 4. And 4 follows 1 through 3 as inevitably as water running downhill. Law-abiding folks buy up guns and ammunition like it was going out of style. Gun and ammo factories running 24/7/365 cannot keep up with the demand. This seemed to get into gear in all seriousness on about November 2008, which was the first real gun/ammo shortage I remember. And with each succeeding sequence of events 1 through 3, #4 seems to get worse. And not just guns and ammo; but reloading supplies as well. I did some reloading before coming here. New brass in the popular calibers was hard to find (fortunately I had a lot of old stuff) and magnum pistol primers were scarce as hen's teeth. And buying ammo off the shelves? Depending on where we were in the latest cycle--forget it. Oh, you could find the odd box of Romanian or Russian ammo (if you could put up with the corrosion and spotty performance it caused) but top-shelf American stuff was, again depending on where we were in the cycle, nonexistent.

The numbers are staggering. A CNN article , dated June 4, 2021 , stated the following: "There is no government or national database of gun sales, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation keeps track of pre-sale background checks, an indicator that’s been soaring to record highs.

In March, the FBI reported almost 4.7 million background checks – the most of any month since the agency started keeping track more than 20 years ago, and a whopping 77% increase over March 2019."

The interesting thing is that this report is just the tip of the iceberg; that 77% increase over March 2019 was just the LATEST increase. Background checks and resulting gun ownership has been skyrocketing in just about the same way for the past 14 years. Ther is no accurate count but I've seen estimates that, in the last 14 years, as many as one hundred MILLION guns have been sold to law-abiding Americans. That, folks, is one hell of a lot of guns.

Amazing! The histrionics of the anti-gun folks has done more to put guns into the hands of average Americans than any other one thing. Ever.

Ironic, isn't it?

[Normal]

I bought my guns under existing laws. I have served my country honorably for 20 years and have done my best to conform to what benefits everyone. At this point I can tell you in my own mind, I will never give up what was lawfully purchased; it doesn’t matter if new laws are made to take them away. No one can just come in and change the rules at my expense. Society needs to fix the Dr. Spock mess they created and the media needs to stop attempting the manipulation of us all while pretending they don’t hype shootings for better ratings. Entertainment and news organizations are largely responsible for the whole mess. Problems continue to grow, but I can honestly say guns haven’t perpetuated it.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

I enjoyed this post (and others like it) because it was well written and it showed a slice of life ....growing up in rural MN. To me, that is the REAL VALUE of this forum ........to express past experiences that other readers can learn something from. I never lived in MN, but I could visualize 2 brothers using the woods and woodcraft as a learning experience - a free laboratory to study trees, animals, woods navigation, and weather ; to move about quietly and always in balance........until it turns into an exercise in meditation and introspection. While hunting you are always moving your eyes and looking keenly for movement.
......With respect to your father's rule #3 - I have often heard it this way.......one shot - 1 deer.....3 shots - no deer. This is why I wrote that some experienced hunters carry a single-shot rifle because the action is shorter making the overall length of the rifle shorter with the same barrel length as a longer bolt or semi auto action. That makes the rifle lighter and less clumsy to improve the hunter's movement. For deer, bear, elk, moose, and wild hogs there is normally only one shot and they are gone. It IS possible that a black or brown or polar bear, a wild hog, or a moose could charge a person, but that is unlikely. If that WERE to happen you would be better off with a rifle with a magazine.
.......With respect to your father's wisdom about being a good shot does NOT make you a good hunter. The hard part about hunting either with a gun, bow or even a camera, is to be able to MOVE through the woods in SLOW motion and quietly. Many people can not do that and that is where the meditation comes into play. And also increased concentration and awareness of surroundings. Once while bow hunting in western Oregon, I was in very thick woods where I could hear a herd of elk eating close to me, but the woods were so dense that I did not see them. I was moving very slowly and I was about to take a step forward when I stopped to look at a leaf because something did not seem right about that leaf. There was too much blue sky around it. I slowly moved a branch on my waist and moving it revealed a cliff drop of about 40 feet that I almost stumbled over. I have also almost stepped on a sleeping and curled-up rattlesnake on a path here in Fl. So, the bottom line is that the woods and hiking have many benefits that include forcing concentration and observation skills.
........One hobby that I enjoyed was trying to make my own bow. I even read a book on it by an Alaskan guide. It is a really big challenge. Even finding and seasoning the right wood is difficult. And supposedly making your own arrows is even more difficult using stone arrowheads and feathers, not plastic
.........I did go hog hunting once in Fl. My friend knew some rich people that had special swamp buggies built to hunt in swamps. I told the driver on the one I was in that there were some black animals that looked like wild hogs in the water about 500 yards away. He laughed at me and said, "no way. too big, that is some cattle". I said that I didn't think so. When we got closer he realized that I was right. They let out a bunch of dogs and the chase began. It ended up with one expert hog hunter holding the head of a 250 lb wild piece of muscle and me and my friend holding the back legs. The man in front was in a very dangerous position and he was tiring as he yelled at us to grab the back legs. They did not like to shoot the hog because that destroyed meat, so they used a much more dangerous method. I decided that day that once with that gang was enough for me, too dangerous. But, it did create a memory that I never forgot.

"With respect to your father's rule #3 - I have often heard it this way.......one shot - 1 deer.....3 shots - no deer. "

True.

Dear hunting back in Northern MN when I was a lad wa always done towards the middle of November, for nine days. Middle of November can get pretty cold up there (easily below zero some days) and sound carries well in those situations--on really cold mornings it was nothing to hear trains over 20 miles away. Opening day especially but other days as well were notorious for the steady sound of gunshots. We'd often hear BANG.....BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG. The stock comment was always "well, another one got away".

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Law-abiding people buying guns is not the problem. The problem is usually young men getting them so that they can go on shooting sprees. Everything under the sun should be attempted to stop these tragedies from happening. And I had neighbors across the street from me here in the Villages who lost their 14 year old granddaughter in one of these mass murders. (They moved out of the Villages to be near surviving family members). These should be covered by the press so that people will start taking actions to prevent them from continuing. Some gun controls are needed along with red flag laws and especially community awareness of potentials for problems. Empathy and planning for the future are critical.

I think the Founding Fathers would be doing similar things as they were very practical men very well versed in history especially Roman and Greek history.

We will never find the solution, until we're honest about the problem. And so far, we've not been.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

Well, probably, but just the same, automatic carbines, machine guns, grenades, rocket launchers, tanks, howitzers, missiles, land mines, poison gas, bombers, and anti-aircraft guns have been outlawed in private hands since generations before any of us was born.

Most of the above are considered "firearms" and therefore LEGAL according to FEDERAL law to possess. Each state has the right to limit them, but federally - they're legit. The others are considered "destructive devices," but not "firearms," and can be legally possessed with appropriate permits from ATF.

Because (which is what this topic is about) - most are considered "firearms," and the Constitution doesn't specify WHICH firearms citizens may or may not possess. And since the Constitution doesn't address "explosive devices," those devices don't even apply in this thread.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Most of the above are considered "firearms" and therefore LEGAL according to FEDERAL law to possess. Each state has the right to limit them, but federally - they're legit. The others are considered "destructive devices," but not "firearms," and can be legally possessed with appropriate permits from ATF.

Because (which is what this topic is about) - most are considered "firearms," and the Constitution doesn't specify WHICH firearms citizens may or may not possess. And since the Constitution doesn't address "explosive devices," those devices don't even apply in this thread.

You can PURCHASE just about anything. Guy I knew back home had a Sherman Tank parked in his driveway, and a local pawnshop had a small field gun for sale ($5,000). Don't know if it worked or not but seemed to be all there; barrel was clear and even if it had been incapacitated I imagine someone knowledgeable about metalworking could get it back into firing condition pretty quick.

It is perfectly legal (and there are many for sale) to buy surplus fighter jets, many in flyable condition. Trade-A-Plane lists sever MiGs for sale, from $39,000 on up to several million for the newest models. Another source had a MiG-29 for sale for $5 million dollars in "like new" condition. 'Course, "flyable" upon purchase is one thing, but keeping them airworthy considering the probable cost of an annual inspection and prohibitive cost of replacement parts, assuming you can even find them for the older models, would be something else again.

[Taltarzac725]

Yellow journalism - Wikipedia

I watch a lot of different channels for news and usually they are quite professional when dealing with mass shootings. Some channels aren't because they have to fill a 24 hour news day and they just repeat the same stories with small variations. Usually interviews of various talking heads who mostly share the same viewpoints with small variations. They might bring someone in as a counterpoint but that is usually to just make themselves look good in comparison.

There are rifles, shotguns, and the like that should not be sold at all to the general public. Some criminals always get around laws but as far as home defense there are many options available that will work very well. Some criminals will get access to weapons that the general public does not.

And the view of the 2nd Amendment creating some kind of right to create a revolution through arming of men and women of sound mind and with righteous motives, etc., I do not buy that the Founding Fathers wanted that. Roman history is full of armies fighting to put their own emperors on the throne and who work to make themselves rich and powerful off their own connection with this chosen emperor. You get endless civil wars through that or someone who claims to be chosen by God.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

I stated that my plan was ONLY ideal and would not fly in the US. I agree with hardening schools. And I wonder if giving the teachers rubber bullet guns would be helpful? That is only a suggestion. Or even flare pistols which would be somewhat effective and VERY inexpensive. And more teachers would be inclined to carry non-lethal weapons.

Rubber bullets? Flare guns? Surely, you jest?
Maybe rubber bullets would scare the bad guy away? Maybe a pop gun would be better?
Flare guns would be just great. Burn the school down while you burn the killer and all the students at the same time.
I thought this was a serious discussion about the second amendment.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

I think the Founding Fathers anticipated future generations pondering the meanings of various parts of the Constitution and provided a Supreme Court to interpret and rule when required.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Rapscallion St Croix

I think the Founding Fathers anticipated future generations pondering the meanings of various parts of the Constitution and provided a Supreme Court to interpret and rule when required.

There have been some terrible Supreme Court decisions and some very poor choices for members on it.

The 2nd Amendment is also very hard to interpret just what they wanted to do. Probably deliberately written that way.

[jimjamuser]

In response to a Sarah_W post. That was a pretty strange ATTEMPTED analogy. But, I have to admit, it was a GREAT DEFLECTION from the subject and my proposed solution. Incidentally, I would be happy with ANY serious SOLUTION put into law. The recent laws passed are too watered down to be worthwhile. I don't think that any rational person needs a 50-round magazine for hunting or any purpose or even for being a FINAL check and balance on a big, bad national government. Actually, if people would like to do something to keep government from going bat-defecation-crazy - I can suggest a much more sane approach.
......We all know that voting in a democracy is a powerful tool. Well, just make it more powerful by requiring every legitimate citizen to vote. That would make voting a MORE powerful tool than it is today in the US. Funny thing.......Australia does it that way (and probably New Zealand) - once again, as with gun laws improving citizen safety, Australia proves itself a superior place to live compared to the US (at least with respect to those 2 important features of life).

.........Remember, mass murder events are increasing in number. At this rate of increase, pretty soon everyone in the US and EVEN TV Land will know of a relative or friend that has been shot during a mass murder event. I would welcome any SOLUTION that would be as effective as stopping sales of semi-auto rifles in the US. And while it would be possible to harden some schools in some neighborhoods. It will be impossible to harden all schools, churches, high school football games, and other group gatherings - that will not be a practical solution. It is ALSO impossible to predict who will be a LUNATIC and turn into a murderer. Better and cheaper to reduce the number of semi-auto rifles in circulation. At this point ALL rifles and shotguns are not the problem, just a sub-set of rifles......namely the semi-automatic ones!

[Rapscallion St Croix]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

There have been some terrible Supreme Court decisions and some very poor choices for members on it.

The 2nd Amendment is also very hard to interpret just what they wanted to do. Probably deliberately written that way.

Only one wing considers the decisions unjust. The others gloat.

[Byte1]

Just an interesting thought. I recently received an email ad that advertised a Gatling Gun for about $6000 (I think, if memory serves). A Gatling Gun is NOT an automatic or even a semiautomatic weapon but is reported to be able to fire about 200 rounds per minute. If I still lived in my previous home, I think I would entertain the idea of purchasing one. Of course, I had my own firing range and steel knock down targets. I didn't need a tank because I already had a track vehicle with a blade mounted on the front for road work. The 2nd Amend is a wonderful Constitutional right that our fore fathers gave us and I hate to see folks exploit it in such a manner to jeopardize it's existence. I consider the 2nd Amend as a Fourth branch of our government, equal to Congress, Executive branch and the Supreme Court. Each fulfilling an equally weighted mandate to keep this country the most perfect experiment in the history of the world. This gives the "People" equal power in how this country progresses in the world. Just my opinion, of course.