[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

Interesting that cities with the strictest of gun control laws, have the highest violations. But, that has been repeated consistently and there is always an excuse. We can't stop the use of drugs, so let's make them legal. Easier that way. So, stopping the sale of guns and banning them will miraculously make them go away. I think that only works with good, law abiding citizens, not the bad guy.

No one considers the fact that banning guns, just increases more crime. If you can't purchase a gun, then someone will "print" one out. Guess what? No serial number for tracking.

Heaven help us if someone actually suggested enforcing existing laws and THEN executing those penalties associated with said violations. But no, we can't have these fine young individuals sitting in jail. It might hurt their self esteem.

You will always have evil and you will always have violence. Even deterrents won't stop that fact. It may keep the lesser focused upon evil from committing to their nefarious ways, but you will always have mentally disturbed that will slip through the system. It's a shame, but it will always happen. And don't bother telling me that other countries don't have crime. They all do. Some focus on punishment or treatment. Ever been to a place of confinement in Turkey? You do not want to be confined there. Want to visit the jails of Mexico? Not quite the holiday of choice.

A gun ban only makes criminals of decent citizens. Buy back all the guns you want, but I bet you won't see one AR-15, Kimble pistol or any other expensive guns in the buy back bin.

Good luck on your gun free country fantasy, folks.

Sad that there is no good answer to this other than better protection of our children.

[MDLNB]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I have no idea what you mean by, "if you can't find it is must be false." I didn't say I couldn't find anything, I said I wasn't going to bother finding it, since it has been proven false so many times - even a couple posts in this thread.

Wrong, it bans the establishment of a preferred religion. Someone must have read it wrong. And yes, there are people like me that lobby for the opening pray to be discontinued. Since I don't recall any Jewish Rabi, or Muslims ever holding the office of Senate Chaplin, hence the use of "Christian" Chaplins is enduring a specific religion.

No, you said that since you couldn't prove (or wouldn't prove me wrong) on the founding fathers being Christian than you consider it false.

And I think you had better go back and read the First Amendment over. It says nothing of "preferred."

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

Interesting that cities with the strictest of gun control laws, have the highest violations. But, that has been repeated consistently and there is always an excuse. We can't stop the use of drugs, so let's make them legal. Easier that way. So, stopping the sale of guns and banning them will miraculously make them go away. I think that only works with good, law abiding citizens, not the bad guy.

No one considers the fact that banning guns, just increases more crime. If you can't purchase a gun, then someone will "print" one out. Guess what? No serial number for tracking.

Heaven help us if someone actually suggested enforcing existing laws and THEN executing those penalties associated with said violations. But no, we can't have these fine young individuals sitting in jail. It might hurt their self esteem.

You will always have evil and you will always have violence. Even deterrents won't stop that fact. It may keep the lesser focused upon evil from committing to their nefarious ways, but you will always have mentally disturbed that will slip through the system. It's a shame, but it will always happen. And don't bother telling me that other countries don't have crime. They all do. Some focus on punishment or treatment. Ever been to a place of confinement in Turkey? You do not want to be confined there. Want to visit the jails of Mexico? Not quite the holiday of choice.

A gun ban only makes criminals of decent citizens. Buy back all the guns you want, but I bet you won't see one AR-15, Kimble pistol or any other expensive guns in the buy back bin.

Good luck on your gun free country fantasy, folks.

Okay, so around and around - please show ANY post by ANYONE in this 30+ page thread that is pushing banning all guns. ANYONE.

You keep repeating that.

I see people asking for suggestions.
I see people suggesting some restrictions.
I see some people wanting to ban some types of guns.

So, I will check back to see the post number that you can provide that someone said the only solution, the desired solution, or the suggested SOLUTION is to ban all guns.

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.

Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media".

That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona.

Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off.

Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be.

And the bomb goes off.

It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does.

Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain.

I absolutely agree with your observation. Only problem is that your observation is applicable to most of other developed countries and they don't have same mass shooting problem like us. What don't they have? GUNS..

SAD

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

And how many times mass murdering by car happened?

SAD

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

Shooting deer and shooting watermelons or punching holes in paper are all OK gun activities with me. And protecting your home and castle. I draw the line at mass murder of human beings with GUNS designed mainly to kill human beings. Those guns are low recoil, 22 caliber, high velocity, high magazine capacity, and military-style rifles.
.......Government tyranny can best be prevented by votes, not bullets. And if that need ever EVEN happened, it could be stopped just as well with bolt action and single-shot rifles.
.........Australia and New Zealand will NOT FALL to government tyranny just because they don't want semi-automatics in the hands of civilians.

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by Johnsocat

And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders...
The 2nd ammendment was ratified for a REASON. It specifically states that the right to bear Arms "shall not be infringed". The REASON is not to hunt deer, it is to defend Americans against it's own government. Yet, our government's (Fed, State and Local) HAVE "infringed" by creating gun laws.
We are NOT like Australia, Sweden, Germany, France, the UK or any other country. We have fought for, and died for, the freedoms granted us as Americans in our Constitution. The same Constitution our Military and Federally elected public servants swear to protect.
Guns and their availability are NOT the problem. Our morals, values and ethics are. Our country looks more and more like Sodom and Gamora everyday. Our family structures are broken, single parents, 2 working parents with latchkey kids.... very little time to instill traditional American values in those kids. Instead they are getting those values from a government school system which teaches them a political agenda and "wokeness". Participation trophies instead of good sportsmanship. Test teaching, which eliminates critical thinking skills. And more recently Critical Race Theory and Gender fluidity and identification. Politicians on your evening news have been incredibly nasty in their words, even suggesting people to get in other people's faces, kick them out of your places of business, citing half of Americans as deplorable, super predators, Nazis, dirty Walmart shoppers, homophobic, xenophobic, and many other names. Even talking about beating up the President "behind the barn". One even threatened a Supreme Court Justice saying he "won't know what hit him."
Is it any wonder (or coincidence) these kids are shooting up the schools?
You want to "fix" this problem? Find the root of the problem. HINT : it is NOT the guns nor gun availibility.

Good luck defending yourself against F-35 with laser guided missiles..

SAD

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Scbang

And how many times mass murdering by car happened?

SAD

I know of one. But my post was sarcastic. With the intention that it would prove difficult to get the car into the school hallway to then somehow get it into the class. But, I am sure the mentally ill people will find a way, just because...

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Johnsocat

And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders...
The 2nd ammendment was ratified for a REASON. It specifically states that the right to bear Arms "shall not be infringed". The REASON is not to hunt deer, it is to defend Americans against it's own government. Yet, our government's (Fed, State and Local) HAVE "infringed" by creating gun laws.
We are NOT like Australia, Sweden, Germany, France, the UK or any other country. We have fought for, and died for, the freedoms granted us as Americans in our Constitution. The same Constitution our Military and Federally elected public servants swear to protect.
Guns and their availability are NOT the problem. Our morals, values and ethics are. Our country looks more and more like Sodom and Gamora everyday. Our family structures are broken, single parents, 2 working parents with latchkey kids.... very little time to instill traditional American values in those kids. Instead they are getting those values from a government school system which teaches them a political agenda and "wokeness". Participation trophies instead of good sportsmanship. Test teaching, which eliminates critical thinking skills. And more recently Critical Race Theory and Gender fluidity and identification. Politicians on your evening news have been incredibly nasty in their words, even suggesting people to get in other people's faces, kick them out of your places of business, citing half of Americans as deplorable, super predators, Nazis, dirty Walmart shoppers, homophobic, xenophobic, and many other names. Even talking about beating up the President "behind the barn". One even threatened a Supreme Court Justice saying he "won't know what hit him."
Is it any wonder (or coincidence) these kids are shooting up the schools?
You want to "fix" this problem? Find the root of the problem. HINT : it is NOT the guns nor gun availibility.

The we are not like Australia, Sweden, and etc.........that part sounds like some kind of "American Exceptionalism" rant to me. All those countries mentioned have stronger middle classes than the US does today. We have the largest wealth disparity of all the 1st world countries. I guess that is some sort of "American Exceptionalism".
........And the US economic realities lead to social dysfunction and even to such extremes of Mass Murder - because there is little money set aside for mental health and other social programs as in other countries. Texas recently lowered their budget for mental health. Is Texas actively trying to produce MORE mass murderers?

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Jacob85

Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!

Agreed.

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

I never saw a 30 round "CLIP" but I have seen a 30 round magazine. Maybe the problem is that some folks don't know anything about the subject and make decisions based on flawed information. Maybe the information regarding police response is incomplete and we just don't know the details. Maybe we know nothing about that young ADULT's parents, or enough details about his mental condition.

Any way you look at it, it was not the fault of the guns used.

Like I said before, why penalize the majority for the acts of the minority?

Don't you buy any insurance? Don't you stop at STOP sign? COVID vaccine?

SAD

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!

I remember about 10 years back, a lot of women taking Karate Classes - many because husbands or boyfriends had physically threatened them. Many became very proficient. I am 100% for anything that brings women up to full equality status with men. And in many countries, there are laws that women must be paid equally as men doing the same job.
.........Women taking gun proficiency and safety classes are a good thing. I would be OK with a government program to pay for such training. Equal power should increase social stability. Women should not have to feel preyed upon in any situation.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Madelaine Amee

IT'S THE ASSAULT WEAPON STUPID! Nothing more/nothing less.

You can drone on all you like, but you cannot get away from the FACT that if the assault weapons were not available mass murders would be almost eliminated.

Agreed! Kudos!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

WRONG! Comparing our country to others is comparing apples to pumpkin pie. It's about time that "some" people start looking at their own back yard instead of over the fence at other folks pastures.

We have a very large land mass.
We have a large population
We have a very liberal PC system
We have much more freedom
We are individuals, not assimilated into one mind controlled by someone else
We have a very lenient justice system
We have many, many things that other countries do not, including an inferior education system, due mainly to "open minded" or fill in the blank_____ thought process, that has taken discipline away from the parent.
I could list many reasons, but to some it will always come back to "its the guns" because they do not know jack about guns or people and their nature.

Sorry, we don't have MORE FREEDOM than Australia, Sweden, or many other countries. In fact, we have the world's GREATEST wealth disparity. It's OK to be proud of your country and love your country. But, it is also good to be realistic and note the country's warts, problems, and weaknesses.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

I never saw a 30 round "CLIP" but I have seen a 30 round magazine. Maybe the problem is that some folks don't know anything about the subject and make decisions based on flawed information. Maybe the information regarding police response is incomplete and we just don't know the details. Maybe we know nothing about that young ADULT's parents, or enough details about his mental condition.

Any way you look at it, it was not the fault of the guns used.

Like I said before, why penalize the majority for the acts of the minority?

Clip.....magazine ..........Potato Pa tah to......big deal. I know the technical difference. But clip and magazine are basically interchangeable terms to the average person. Plus clip is quicker to type.
..........People should try and focus in on the main point of a post - not try to point out minor flaws.