[Scbang]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Here is an interesting bit of firearm history a friend sent me:

What changed? Society and moral values have changed and not for the good. So easy to blame an inanimate object than to work on correcting the real problem. Gun bans, mental pablum for simple minds.

Very good points. As you have mentioned what changed? The society, culture and almost everything changed since 1907. We are not the same people whom we can trust with 1907 or M1 Carbine. Can we change us back to 1907? Maybe not. Then we should reconsider whether the current society can be trusted with 1907s and M1 Carbines safely..

SAD

[Taltarzac725]

Charles Whitman in the U of Texas tower and his actions changed things a lot. University of Texas tower shooting - Wikipedia

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Here is an interesting bit of firearm history a friend sent me:

"A hundred and twelve years ago, in 1907...our great grandparents were first able to the semi-auto Winchester Model 1907.
This is a gun they could buy from a Sears catalogue and have delivered via US Post. It was/ is a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with detachable, high capacity magazine.
About 400,000 semi-automatic rifles were produced before WW2. Civilians had hundreds of thousands of these for 40 years, while US soldiers were still being issued old fashioned bolt action rifles.
The 1907 fired just as fast as an AR15 or AK47 and the bullet (.351 Winchester) was actually larger than those fired by the more modern looking weapons..
The ONLY functional difference between the 1907 and a controversial and much feared AR15 is the modern black plastic stock.

The semi auto, so-called "assault rifle" is 110 years old. It isnt new in any way.
The semi auto rifle was not a weapon of war. The government MADE IT a weapon of war 40 years after civilians had them.
The semi-auto can be safely owned by civilians. The proof is that literally 3 generations of adults owned and used them responsibly and no one ever even noticed.
Want to fix the horror of mass shootings? Fix the things that have changed in society for the worse in the last 50 years."

As I pointed out earlier, after WWII millions of semi automatic M1 Carbines were sold to the American public with 15 and 30 round magazines. You could buy them from catalogs and gun magazine ads and have them shipped directly to your home by the US Postal Service. Using all the illogic in this thread there should have been hundreds of shootings using the Model 1907 and M1 Carbine. What changed? Society and moral values have changed and not for the good. So easy to blame an inanimate object than to work on correcting the real problem. Gun bans, mental pablum for simple minds.

[Jack58033]

The Japanese play violent video games but it does not correlate to gun violence. They make it hard to get guns.They don't have a fraction of the guns we have.

[jdulej]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Charles Whitman in the U of Texas tower and his actions changed things a lot. University of Texas tower shooting - Wikipedia

///

[jdulej]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Here is an interesting bit of firearm history a friend sent me:

"A hundred and twelve years ago, in 1907...our great grandparents were first able to the semi-auto Winchester Model 1907.
This is a gun they could buy from a Sears catalogue and have delivered via US Post. It was/ is a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with detachable, high capacity magazine.
About 400,000 semi-automatic rifles were produced before WW2. Civilians had hundreds of thousands of these for 40 years, while US soldiers were still being issued old fashioned bolt action rifles.
The 1907 fired just as fast as an AR15 or AK47 and the bullet (.351 Winchester) was actually larger than those fired by the more modern looking weapons..
The ONLY functional difference between the 1907 and a controversial and much feared AR15 is the modern black plastic stock.

The semi auto, so-called "assault rifle" is 110 years old. It isnt new in any way.
The semi auto rifle was not a weapon of war. The government MADE IT a weapon of war 40 years after civilians had them.
The semi-auto can be safely owned by civilians. The proof is that literally 3 generations of adults owned and used them responsibly and no one ever even noticed.
Want to fix the horror of mass shootings? Fix the things that have changed in society for the worse in the last 50 years."

As I pointed out earlier, after WWII millions of semi automatic M1 Carbines were sold to the American public with 15 and 30 round magazines. You could buy them from catalogs and gun magazine ads and have them shipped directly to your home by the US Postal Service. Using all the illogic in this thread there should have been hundreds of shootings using the Model 1907 and M1 Carbine. What changed? Society and moral values have changed and not for the good. So easy to blame an inanimate object than to work on correcting the real problem. Gun bans, mental pablum for simple minds.

You note one of many examples of how humans find a way to take an object and subvert it to satisfy a desire the object was never intended for. Two I can think of in my half awake state are 1) Tylenol. The original was much more effective than today's version, but also could easily be broken down to provide a key ingredient for Speed. 2) Cocaine. 100+ years ago, this was in every households' medicine cabinet until society decided it shouldn't be.
In the above two cases, and all the others I have thought about, the "solution" has been to ban or change the object, NOT to expect people to stop subverting the object to fit their needs. This will happen to the semi auto as well eventually. The generation that is so hung up on the 2nd amendment in all its various interpretations is dying out, and the younger folks have better things to do with their time.
People who think they need to closet full of guns to protect them for "The Man" don't realize that they already lost that battle - society has already been molded to fit the fascist model - the 1 or 2% own and control everything, the middle 70% do all the work and get thrown a bone from time to time (that's us), and the rest get blamed for everything and keep the middle group dumb and happy.
All we can do until the day comes when this model falls apart (they all do eventually) is work around the edges to enjoy life.

[Normal]

These shooters almost always seem to go for the militaristic look. The AR look seems to glorify their position before they do their dastardly deed and then become suicidal. Really, this shooter could have done a lot more damage with a shotgun and ammo tubes. Why not just remove the look and sell the semi automatic rifle with a hunting rifle style and look? Get rid of the MR. GI Joe appearance and glory.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Crime should have been rampant during the Great Depression but from what I've read about that period of economic catastrophe, there wasn't a drastic rise in crime.

Actually, crime and murders did increase during the Great Depression - it spawned many gang murders in the big cities and often involved the Mafia. Many factors were different in 1929 than today obviously. The US population was 123 million people then. Most people were farmers and the Midwest became a "dust bowl" where much of the rich topsoil blew away. The average farmer would own a shotgun or a bolt action rifle for deer hunting. Only career criminal mafia types would possess semi-auto rifles or automatic "machine guns". In 1929 the ratio of guns per person was probably less than .25 - today it is 1.2 guns per person in the US. In 1929 there was no NRA or gun manufacturer's lobby trying desperately (for high profits) to convince every young male that they NEEDED a semi-auto, low recoil, MAN-killing weapon with a 30 round banana mag. Yes, the "times they are a-changing"!

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

In 1929 the ratio of guns per person was probably less than .25 - today it is 1.2 guns per person in the US. Yes, the "times they are a-changing"!

In 1929, cars per person was .22 cars, today it's 1.8 cars.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Untrue, although this took more than just a few seconds to check. This story is the #1 story on the entire first page of a google search. Digging just one layer deeper, I found that the AR-15 has a thing called a direct gas impingement used in the cycling and piston and bolt and some other mechanics that I don't even try to understand and don't care about.

What's interesting about it isn't what it is. It's that it was patented in the 1956. It didn't exist for the 50 years of the Winchester 1907's manufacture, until 4 years before the Winchester 1907 was retired. And - it was introduced by Colt, not Winchester.

So no, they're not exactly the same. They don't look the same, they didn't come with the same components, didn't fire the same ammo, didn't have the same weight, didn't have the same thrust, didn't have the same method of (whatever it is that bolts and pistons do).

The only thing they had in common is that they're both semi-automatic rifles.

It is quite obvious you have absolutely no knowledge of firearms, and as you stated you really don't care about gaining the knowledge. A semi auto rifle is a semi auto rife no matter what is looks like, they still fire a single round with each pull of the trigger. Looks mean nothing when it comes to lethality or function.
The Model 1907 round has a heavier hitting bullet that is meant for large game animals where as the 5.56 x 45 MM round of the AR15 is considered the absolute minimum caliber for deer. Some states don't allow the use of the AR15 round for hunting large game.
Your point about when the AR was patented is irrelevant, what does that have to do with when the Model 1907 was introduced?
I never stated that the AR15 was made by Winchester. ArmaLite sold the rights to the design of the AR15 to Colt.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

The long bow was a devastating weapon used by the English army. Armies of those times had huge wooden hammers called War Hammers that crushed skulls and shattered bones. The Mace, a large iron ball with spikes that was attached to a chain and swung by the soldier penetrating medieval armor crushing skulls and shattered bones. All kinds of knives and swords have been used as a weapon of war.

Nearly every firearm that has been made was a weapon of war so claiming the AR 15 is a weapon of war doesn't make it any different that say an M1 Carbine. In case you don't know, the M1 Carbine was a semi automatic rifle and the M2 Carbine was full automatic. The M1 and M2 carbines originally came with 15 round magazines and later in the war, 30 round magazines Carbines were sold in the millions as surplus after the war and how in many "mass shootings" have you ever heard about them being used?

You totally ignore the fact that kings and dictators over the centuries have banned the ownership of weapons by their subjects. They didn't want anybody challenging their power. If you don't think our government would never turn into a dictatorship you are totally naive when it comes to human nature and the desire for power.

Actually, I think that it is now about 50 / 50 whether from 2024 on the US will BECOME a dictatorship. And I think that is the likely reason why the last 2 years have shown such a big increase in GUN OWNERSHIP - from 300 million to 400 million. So, I agree about that. And I agree that the Viet Cong rebels fought back with lower-tech battlefield equipment, mostly GUNS. And they used a BOLT-ACTION Mosin-Nagant rifle for sniper use.
..........So, IF (a BIG if) the US has a Dictatorship around 2026, then the rebels should be stacking up on long-range
sniper-type BOLT-ACTION rifles rather than the short-range military-style semi-autos.
..........Anyway, the easiest, least bloody, and best way to prevent a dictatorship is by votes, not bullets.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

..........Anyway, the easiest, least bloody, and best way to prevent a dictatorship is by votes, not bullets.

That is exactly how Hitler came to power, voted into office by the citizens of Germany. And, once he became the Fuhrer, he enacted gun control laws that removed guns from the hands of the German people and the Jews. We all know what happened to the Jews.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

That is exactly how Hitler came to power, voted into office by the citizens of Germany. And, once he became the Fuhrer, he enacted gun control laws that removed guns from the hands of the German people and the Jews. We all know what happened to the Jews.

Very good advice, we should all remember if a nationalist authoritarian runs for President.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Actually, I think that it is now about 50 / 50 whether from 2024 on the US will BECOME a dictatorship. And I think that is the likely reason why the last 2 years have shown such a big increase in GUN OWNERSHIP - from 300 million to 400 million. So, I agree about that. And I agree that the Viet Cong rebels fought back with lower-tech battlefield equipment, mostly GUNS. And they used a BOLT-ACTION Mosin-Nagant rifle for sniper use.
..........So, IF (a BIG if) the US has a Dictatorship around 2026, then the rebels should be stacking up on long-range
sniper-type BOLT-ACTION rifles rather than the short-range military-style semi-autos.
..........Anyway, the easiest, least bloody, and best way to prevent a dictatorship is by votes, not bullets.

List of Roman emperors - Wikipedia

Our Founding Fathers were familiar with Greek and Roman history and could see that if a rotten emperor controlled the military he or she could stay in power but as soon as they lost that connection the military put in a new leader. It happened multiple times in some years.

Year of the Four Emperors - Wikipedia

Year of the Five Emperors - Wikipedia

Barracks emperor - Wikipedia

Our military leaders seem very careful not to get the Army, Navy, etc. involved in politics such as it would lead to so many civil wars like in Rome and sometimes in Ancient Greece.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Here is an interesting bit of firearm history a friend sent me:

"A hundred and twelve years ago, in 1907...our great grandparents were first able to the semi-auto Winchester Model 1907.
This is a gun they could buy from a Sears catalogue and have delivered via US Post. It was/ is a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with detachable, high capacity magazine.
About 400,000 semi-automatic rifles were produced before WW2. Civilians had hundreds of thousands of these for 40 years, while US soldiers were still being issued old fashioned bolt action rifles.
The 1907 fired just as fast as an AR15 or AK47 and the bullet (.351 Winchester) was actually larger than those fired by the more modern looking weapons..
The ONLY functional difference between the 1907 and a controversial and much feared AR15 is the modern black plastic stock.

The semi auto, so-called "assault rifle" is 110 years old. It isnt new in any way.
The semi auto rifle was not a weapon of war. The government MADE IT a weapon of war 40 years after civilians had them.
The semi-auto can be safely owned by civilians. The proof is that literally 3 generations of adults owned and used them responsibly and no one ever even noticed.
Want to fix the horror of mass shootings? Fix the things that have changed in society for the worse in the last 50 years."

As I pointed out earlier, after WWII millions of semi automatic M1 Carbines were sold to the American public with 15 and 30 round magazines. You could buy them from catalogs and gun magazine ads and have them shipped directly to your home by the US Postal Service. Using all the illogic in this thread there should have been hundreds of shootings using the Model 1907 and M1 Carbine. What changed? Society and moral values have changed and not for the good. So easy to blame an inanimate object than to work on correcting the real problem. Gun bans, mental pablum for simple minds.

It is true that FUNCTUALLY the Winchester 1907 is similar to the AR 15 in that they are both semi-auto rifles. But, there are significant differences. The 1907 would be longer than an AR-15 clone and therefore harder to hide under a trench coat. The cartridge of the 1907 would produce MUCH more recoil than the 223 used in an AR-15. This low-recoil feature of the 223 cartridge allows AR-15 shooters to become more proficient killers because they don't have to worry about the affects of high recoil - like barrel rise and shooter flinching. Also, the 223 cartridge is smaller and lighter than the 351 caliber of the 1907 so a mass murder can carry more rounds. And the high velocity of the 223 causes the bullet to practically explode in human flesh as compared with the .351 low velocity round. So, there ARE significant differences.
.........And society has changed so much since we grew up in the 1950s that SOMETHING must be done about the MASS-MURDER problem. The EASIEST solution is to do what Australia and New Zealand did - eliminate semi-auto rifles from CIVILIAN hands.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Untrue, although this took more than just a few seconds to check. This story is the #1 story on the entire first page of a google search. Digging just one layer deeper, I found that the AR-15 has a thing called a direct gas impingement used in the cycling and piston and bolt and some other mechanics that I don't even try to understand and don't care about.

What's interesting about it isn't what it is. It's that it was patented in the 1956. It didn't exist for the 50 years of the Winchester 1907's manufacture, until 4 years before the Winchester 1907 was retired. And - it was introduced by Colt, not Winchester.

So no, they're not exactly the same. They don't look the same, they didn't come with the same components, didn't fire the same ammo, didn't have the same weight, didn't have the same thrust, didn't have the same method of (whatever it is that bolts and pistons do).

The only thing they had in common is that they're both semi-automatic rifles.

Good post!