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-   -   Ford lost $32,000 per ev in 2nd quarter (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/current-events-news-541/ford-lost-32-000-per-ev-2nd-quarter-344189/)

ThirdOfFive 09-17-2023 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhdallas (Post 2257772)
I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead.

EV haters?

More like a healthy skepticism of anything smacking of social engineering.

mtdjed 09-17-2023 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainger99 (Post 2257753)
I don’t understand the accounting details but I would assume that the EV is a separate division and that the costs are x and the income is y. The costs clearly exceed the income so you divide the losses by the number of vehicles sold to determine the loss per vehicle.

But perhaps we have some people who worked in the automotive industry that can explain how these losses are calculated.

Even NPR says that Ford is losing money on EVs.

Ford's CEO is staking its future on electric cars : NPR

It is quite simple.

Make your total cost at any point you want, but the maker has a plan for a quantity that will recover the development cost, incremental item cost and profit.

That may not work on government projects since profit is not their goal.

Pugchief 09-17-2023 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merrymini (Post 2257794)
Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk?

Because the powers that be don't like him because he refuses to acquiesce and bend the knee every time they come calling with another demand.

kkingston57 09-17-2023 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainger99 (Post 2257648)

Tesla lost a lot of money early on also. They will catch up. Still feel that car makers should have worked more fervently on hybrid cars. These cars get at least 25-30% higher mileage and do not have the range problems.

This would have been a compromise. Something politicians do not even know how to spell.

Caymus 09-17-2023 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merrymini (Post 2257794)
I have owned a tesla, fantastic car. Most of the time charged it at home. It only becomes a problem on a long range trip. So far, when I used it that way, it wasn’t too bad but what happens when you have too many of them and not enough infrastructure for recharging? Until new battery technology comes around, a chargeable hybrid is the best transition vehicle. So why are people, particularly the administration, pushing a technology that would strip the earth of the minerals to provide these batteries? Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk? I can only assume brainless zombies are making these decisions because they are so stupid.

Because Tesla is nonunion.

Pugchief 09-17-2023 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caymus (Post 2257980)
Because Tesla is nonunion.

Yes, that, too.

Robbb 09-17-2023 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hizzonner1030 (Post 2257959)
Many say that no one wants an EV. Go to to a dealers lot and try to buy one or even test drive. They sell faster than they are being manufactured.

Which EV's are you talking about? They can't give the Chevy Bolts away. The Ford Lightning is on hold due to a design defect.

Robbb 09-17-2023 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickey100 (Post 2257821)
Toyota has announced it will have a model with a cruising range of about 620 miles in 2026, and is working on one that would have a potential 930 mile range. And they are making changes in production which will lower manufacturing costs. But I agree, hybrids really make sense right now. Why wouldn't someone want a vehicle that gets 50 mpg around town and you don't have to plug it in to recharge?

Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

Stu from NYC 09-17-2023 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2257968)
Because the powers that be don't like him because he refuses to acquiesce and bend the knee every time they come calling with another demand.

Thankfully he enabled us to have the means to get to the ISS years ago. Brilliant visionary who is not afraid to spend his own money

Stu from NYC 09-17-2023 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbb (Post 2257985)
Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

Still have a feeling that EV's are not going to be the save all that some people think they will be.

Pugchief 09-17-2023 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 2258008)
Still have a feeling that EV's are not going to be the save all that some people think they will be.

Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.

JMintzer 09-17-2023 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkingston57 (Post 2257979)
Tesla lost a lot of money early on also. They will catch up. Still feel that car makers should have worked more fervently on hybrid cars. These cars get at least 25-30% higher mileage and do not have the range problems.

This would hpave been a compromise. Something politicians do not even know how to spell.

I just bought a new car last week. My 12.5 yo Hyundai Genesis' engine gave up the ghost. Blown head gasket.

I seriously looked at hybrids, but there's no way I'm driving a Prius and nothing else fit my needs/budget.

I wound up buying an Acura TXL with only 14K miles on it, that was coming out of the dealer's loaner inventory. Still under warranty. Perfect condition, not a mark on it, serviced by the dealer, and I saved almost $15K off of a new one. It serves my needs perfectly... For now...

JMintzer 09-17-2023 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbb (Post 2257985)
Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

https://j.gifs.com/mLPLOa.gif

Stu from NYC 09-17-2023 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2258020)
Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.

There you go confusing some people with the facts again.:clap2:

Cheapbas 09-18-2023 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtdjed (Post 2257749)
While definitely not an EV fan, I believe you must use care in using data like the above. It likely does not mean that each new EV car costs Ford $32,000 more that the sell price. I would strongly suspect that number reflects the incremental cost of each new EV plus a share of the huge developmental cost incurred based upon dividing development costs by quantity sold.

You have to expect that companies don't blindly sell at a price below incremental cost. They may have a plan the shows recovery of development costs within a projected sales volume. Sales lagging that projection could be a major problem.

My only caution is that use the term loss of $32,000 may have a different meaning.

It does “ increased costs related to new product development and production-capacity expansion” and that makes perfect sense. They are expecting profitability a few years down the road.

OhioBuckeye 09-18-2023 09:20 AM

I know people don’t care if I worked for Ford for 38yrs. But your right EV’s are to expensive for most of us to buy. I’m thinking Ford sees the writing on the wall. EV’s are a short distance auto’s. I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station & if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn, plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours & the biggest thing can you afford to pay $40,000 more for the same vehicle you have now. Most of these EV’s your paying for HP not realablity. People have to weigh the pros & cons before they invest in a very expensive EV.

Eclas 09-18-2023 09:36 AM

not to worry I'm sure we are all covering those losses thru our tax dollars.

jamesrcorbett 09-18-2023 10:41 AM

Subsidy/Business Plan
 
When you hear the word subsidy who do you think is paying for that financial aid? The US taxpayers. Our current administration is asking us to pay for something that is their dream and not that of the majority of people.
The real issue is that we have politicians and not business people. In business you develop a business plan that analyzes every aspect of the implementation issues and and works backwards from the end goal to have a successful implementation.
1) Electrical Infrastructure
2) Charging Stations across the country.
3) Sufficient battery range to drive trips.
4) No mandates of use by letting the market decide.
5) Material resources to build batteries w/o enhancing China.
Dreams without plans are just dreams!

Cybersprings 09-18-2023 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chipster (Post 2257925)
Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

And what makes you so sure it will be EVs that everyone is driving in 50 years? The thing that makes EVs obsolete, even though they aren't even a viable thing today may be just around the corner. They may be laughing at you for thinking that will be the future when x, not even thought of commonly now, becomes the "real solution"

Stu from NYC 09-18-2023 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybersprings (Post 2258225)
And what makes you so sure it will be EVs that everyone is driving in 50 years? The thing that makes EVs obsolete, even though they aren't even a viable thing today may be just around the corner. They may be laughing at you for thinking that will be the future when x, not even thought of commonly now, becomes the "real solution"

Could not agree with you more.

Pugchief 09-18-2023 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioBuckeye (Post 2258196)
I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station

To be fair, the charging stations along any interstate highway are plentiful, but require exiting and driving a mile or so to arrive at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioBuckeye (Post 2258196)
& if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn

I can't answer that bc I only and always charge my Tesla in my garage. We take the ICE car if we have to drive more than 50 miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioBuckeye (Post 2258196)
plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours?

Can't speak for others, but I would not, and if that's the case, it's a huge problem.

JMintzer 09-18-2023 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2258273)
To be fair, the charging stations along any interstate highway are plentiful, but require exiting and driving a mile or so to arrive at.


I can't answer that bc I only and always charge my Tesla in my garage. We take the ICE car if we have to drive more than 50 miles.


Can't speak for others, but I would not, and if that's the case, it's a huge problem.

You are a classic example of the "short distance driver" that is being discussed...

Nothing wrong with that. EVs can be a great alternative for someone with your needs.

But... It's also telling that when you need to take any sort of a trip, the EV stays home...

Stu from NYC 09-18-2023 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2258289)
You are a classic example of the "short distance driver" that is being discussed...

Nothing wrong with that. EVs can be a great alternative for someone with your needs.

But... It's also telling that when you need to take and sort of a trip, the EV stays home...

Until an EV can go longer distances and charge as quickly as I can fuel up my car see no advantage to getting one. Especially at 3x the cost of my Camry.

JP 09-18-2023 03:33 PM

I think the best idea is a hybrid.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbb (Post 2257653)
The dirty secret that no one is talking about is not how much money they lose per EV. Its how few EV's are being sold!. This article is somewhat misleading as it says they sold 30,000 EV's in Q2, that includes hybrids. True EV sales are app 5,000 per the quarter. Outside of the Ford Lightning pickup truck (at $110,000) they are selling almost No EV's.

The 2 go hand-in-hand - units made and cost per unit. It is that way with any "RUN" of ANYTHING made on a factory line. EVs have better acceleration and braking due to the battery weight being placed lower than the center of gravity of an IC engine vehicle. EVs have fewer parts than IC engine vehicles and, therefore will be more reliable and easier to maintain. Also, no oil to change and NO TRIPS to the gas station for local travel.
........With so many advantages, even Americans will SOON make a big push for EVs. When that happens the price of EVs drop below corresponding IC engine vehicles BECAUSE many, many unit will be purchased. Also in 2024 many more charging stations will be built.
......And, I believe that in 2024 Renault will have a compact EV automobile selling for $29,000 dollars. That sounds like a "game changer" to me. And China is making a lot of RAPID progress in EVs. The US NEEDS EV technology to keep up with China. There is BIG sales potential in Australia, New Zealand, Africa, India, Russia, Europe, and everywhere.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phylt (Post 2257670)
As tough as GM, Ford, Stellantis is - and DEFINITELY will be in the near future, VW is tilting toward short term hurt. Their sales in China are WAY down and they have little in the way of EVs. Nissan is worse. Matter of fact even all Japanese makers are in very tough shape financially. Toyota was WAY late to the EV, betting on ICE and Hybrids. Korean car mfrs look good and ahead with EVs.

As said USA cos LOSE mega$$$ on each EV they manage to sell. Tough road ahead for each.

Tesla... well they have the inside track and lightyears ahead of competition. Now Chinese EV mfrs, watch out - they ARE coming. Europe will prob put serious taxes on Chinese imported EVs. And at some point the USA will too.

Agree about the rising problem of Chinese EVs. We and Europe can put tariffs on their cars. But, there is still Australia, New Zealand, India, AFRICA, and South America where we don't have much influence. So that is why the US needs to QUICKLY DOMINATE EV technology. Right now European new car hybrid electric sales are 25%. EU new car all-electric EVs are 15%. In the US only 6% of new car sales are all-electric.
......It makes sense that the EU has greater EV sales than the US because the cost of gasoline is MUCH higher in the EU. The US needs to FIGHT THAT and NOT become complacent and lose our factory and technology edge in EVs. The US government should do everything in its power to bring new EV sales up to about 30%. That would help our environment (like the Florida fishing industry - due to CO2 destroying coral reefs) and the world's environment. It would go a long way toward REVERSING the HEAT experienced here in the US and in the world.
.........So far this summer, worldwide it is the HOTTEST on record.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbill1 (Post 2257690)
EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.

Yes, music to MY ears - I have been saying that for about 1 year.

JMintzer 09-18-2023 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2258323)
Yes, music to MY ears - I have been saying that for about 1 year.

Talk is cheap... Walking the walk isn't...

Stu from NYC 09-18-2023 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2258330)
Talk is cheap... Walking the walk isn't...

As an uncle used to say, do as I say not as I do. So easy to just tell others what to do.

Rainger99 09-18-2023 06:17 PM

Article on cheap Chinese EVs
 
These are cheaper than golf carts!!!

Cheap Chinese Electric Cars About to Upend the US Vehicle Market

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sloanst (Post 2257888)
This is what happens when you allow a political administration, that knows nothing about business, to influence your decisions.

That is such an exaggeration that it is humorous.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondering (Post 2257852)
EV's are the future if you want to save the planet for future generations. All startups have initial problems and losses.

Yes, I can agree to that.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chipster (Post 2257925)
Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

Well written!

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2258020)
Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.

In 1900 they said that the IC automobile was BAD because it scared the horses. A lot of the EV naysayers sound the same to me.

jimjamuser 09-18-2023 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioBuckeye (Post 2258196)
I know people don’t care if I worked for Ford for 38yrs. But your right EV’s are to expensive for most of us to buy. I’m thinking Ford sees the writing on the wall. EV’s are a short distance auto’s. I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station & if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn, plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours & the biggest thing can you afford to pay $40,000 more for the same vehicle you have now. Most of these EV’s your paying for HP not realablity. People have to weigh the pros & cons before they invest in a very expensive EV.

Electrical motors move in a circle. IC motors go up and down causing a lot of friction and wasted energy. And the water pump and the oil pump and the radiator. All NOT needed in an electrical motor. Electrical motors have more torque almost instantaneously. Best of all the electrical generating plant that supplies a hundred EVs is stationary so it is easier to control pollution. And there are CLEAN energy electrical sources. We can lower our CO2 production which will prevent people from killing themselves with pollution causing Global Warming.

Rainger99 09-18-2023 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2258351)
And there are CLEAN energy electrical sources. We can lower our CO2 production which will prevent people from killing themselves with pollution causing Global Warming.

There are clean energy sources - but not enough.

Electric Cars Are Not Necessarily Clean - Scientific American

Pugchief 09-18-2023 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 2258304)
Especially at 3x the cost of my Camry.

A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

Rainger99 09-19-2023 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2258360)
A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

Depending on the outcome of the strike, Teslas may soon be cheaper than ICEs.

Right now, Tesla spends about $45 an hour on labor (this cost combines hourly wages and benefits), while Ford, GM, and Stellantis are currently spending about $66 an hour.

If the UAW gets its way on pay increases and things like reviving pensions, the Detroit 3's hourly labor costs could more than double to $136 an hour.

Tesla Employees Make $20 Less Per Hour Than GM, Ford. UAW Proposal Would Double the Gap.

Bay Kid 09-19-2023 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugchief (Post 2258360)
A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

Sure nice that taxpayers are paying for other peoples cars.

Pugchief 09-19-2023 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bay Kid (Post 2258431)
Sure nice that taxpayers are paying for other peoples cars.

Yes, it's ridiculous, but that's what they do: give other people your money, AKA redistribution. Sometimes it's to incentivize something they want to push, sometimes it's under the guise of attempting to equalize some perceived imbalance. Sometimes it's enriching their donors. Sometimes it's local pork projects. Etc, etc.

Good luck trying to make that stop, it is not anything new.


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