[John Mayes]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Yes they all get the credit for doing all the legwork, the physical work, the strategic planning, logistics, arrangements.

But they wouldn't have done any of it if the President hadn't said "okay let's do that." He could've said no. He made the tough decision to say yes. He's being lambasted for it.

So if you want to give all those people the "credit" for doing it, then you need to accept that certain of the American citizenry are blaming Biden for all the things that went wrong - when - according to you, he didn't do anything at all. It was all those other people who did it all.

He’s being lambasted and rightfully so. Read the WP Editorial Opinion piece from today. This isn’t about R or D. This is about the global perception of America’s incompetence.

[Papa_lecki]

Originally Posted by Koapaka

According to a tweet there were 7 busloads of American women that were blocked from being able to access the airport and are now in taliban hands....for starters Emily Miller tweeted "We’re dealing with Kabul. There’s 7 buses of female American citizens. The CG refused to open the gate. We have a congressman with us and he had the state department reach out. MG Donahue refused. 10 minutes ago the females were taken by the Taliban. They are likely dead now."

Here’s the article inThe NY Times. They were students at the American University. Most were women.

American University of Kabul Students Trying to Flee Were Sent Home - The New York Times

[Eg_cruz]

Originally Posted by Toymeister

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you and your family for your service🙏🏻💙💙🙏🏻

[Villages Kahuna]

So much easier said than done. Once we began to withdraw our military and Afghan employees, the “government” we set up and the army we equipped and claimed we had trained began to quickly collapse as the result. Withdrawing before every single person who wanted to be removed from the country was impossible as soon as we lost control of the country and those desiring to leave couldn’t safely gain access to the airport.

The Taliban essentially won the conflict when the terms of our surrender were documented in the Doha Agreement agreed to by president Trump in 2020, then worsened when president Biden announced the specific date when we would leave.

Once our political leaders made those mistakes, the sequence of withdrawal you suggest became impossible. It was amazing that we were able to get as many people safely out of the country as we did. But our failure to fulfill the promises we made to the Afghans who were loyal to us for years won’t be forgotten by those with whom we attempt to make future agreements. Afghanistan will be another important reason why the reliability and consistency of U.S. foreign policy is mistrusted.

[George Page]

Originally Posted by ureout

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

The Time to leave was the day after we killed Bin Laden.

[MDLNB]

Originally Posted by billethkid

the last plane has left and "....we are out...".

Discussion about who may still be there?

OVER 300 Americans stranded, left behind. But, we got over a hundred thousand potential terrorists out.

[Cindyd]

Total incompetence! What rational person would pull out of a fortress like Bachram. With 2 runways & aircraft in middle of night, before evacuating people?

[B-flat]

Originally Posted by number 10 gi

there is no doubt that it is incompetence.

ditto!!!!

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by PugMom

no logic here for some time now. that's why the whole thing is a c!us+er..@k. they avoided a plan in place that their predecessor built just because of who he is, imo.

Not being a wise guy, but could you link me to that plan that was avoided ?

Maybe the 5000 extra terrorists released screwed up the plan.

There is no way this retreat could have happened without the perils.

[MandoMan]

Originally Posted by Toymeister

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you. Well said. There are also medical workers and charity workers who believe they are crucial to saving lives and decide to risk their own lives to save others. (Sort of like the military, but with differences.) There are a few who have developed local ties, perhaps through marriage, and decided they won’t leave until they can get their families our at the same time. There are a few who are running engineering projects that will fall to pieces if they leave.

I’ve been listening to Shelby Foote’s three volumes on the Civil War for the second time (100 hours). One thing those books make clear is that whatever plans were made, on either side, could be foiled by muddy roads, a river rising, tired horses, sick troops, not arriving somewhere on time, misunderstanding orders, or failure to carry out orders. A couple minutes one way or another could win or lose a battle. Plans could be leaked or intercepted. Lucky shots could change the course of battles. Information failures and logistics problems could be fatal. (In a way it’s a bit like how there are so many things on football fields that can change the course of events.)

I think that after a horrible muddle caused by the unexpected happening, our country—government, Pentagon, and those around the world working on this—did a pretty wonderful job ramping up the effort in just a few days to taking out thousands a day to somewhere else. I’m reminded of Dunkirk, and what a muddle that was, and how much less certain of success it seemed at the time, and how close it came to not working, and how many didn’t make it home, and how it was a desperate retreat recast as a victory, and how even civilians pitched in to help save lives.

[Jeanette179]

Billions of equipment left behind, thousands of terrorists released from prison, names and addresses of our contractors released, people falling from planes trying to escape.....
Glad we left, but GEEZZZ

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by George Page

The Time to leave was the day after we killed Bin Laden.

The right answer.

[alemorkam]

We left a busload of Americans there that wanted out. Decision of our president AND Joint Chief of Staff. If that bus had 50 marines would they have made the same decision to leave them there?

[christine J Toft]

Originally Posted by tvbound

Had we just been smart enough to include the Afghani government in the withdrawal talks, instead of ONLY the Taliban, more than likely the whole country wouldn't have fallen to the Taliban in a record time - that no one could predict. At least smarter heads eventually prevailed, when the asinine idea of inviting the Taliban to Camp David on 9/11 was floated, to 'celebrate' the original May withdrawal. Let's hope we learned a big lesson here.

You mean the "Afghan Government" that cut and ran?????

[christine J Toft]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Yup, lots of conditions and requirements. And they were mostly living up to them, not all but mostly.

As to why we left now, I was not at the meeting you apparently attended where the decision was made, since you KNOW it had nothing to do with the treaty... Please share what was said.

Isn't it amazing how many arm chair quarterbacks there are. All knowing... Must have been privy to so much classified information.