[LiverpoolWalrus]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

What do you all think? If the percent of unvaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.

[Garywt]

We will continue as we are for a long time, masks, distancing and who knows what else.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.

Another reason you missed... some were forced to work through the full pandemic with people around them going out occasionally from work with covid. They make more than minimum wages but lower middle income. They are younger, survived and don’t want the vaccination at this point. For all they know, they’ve had it and were asymptomatic. They aren’t home collecting the lovely handouts for not working.

[coffeebean]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

[Bay Kid]

If you had your shots by now you should be able to go back to normal. Those that haven't had their shots should just stay inside or take your chances, but don't penalize others.

[Malsua]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Some "reasons":


5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

ADE is anti-body dependent enhancement. It essentially allows a pathogen to bypass the immune system and effects can range from rashes to death. ADE rarely occurs due to natural viruses, Dengue being the notable exception. ADE rarely happens with vaccines in which there is wide community exposure to the native pathogen. When a vaccine is known to trigger ADE, the production and distribution of that vaccine is halted immediately.

If you have natural immunity to a specific pathogen, there is no advantage to getting a vaccine and there is a significant potential downside.

All that said, there is ZERO evidence that SAR-COV2 or in fact any coronaviruses cause or trigger ADE.

If anything, a single dose of any of the vaccines(I personally would avoid the AstraZeneca, but it's not available here in the US anyway) is probably a good idea as a booster.

If you have had Covid, specially with any level of symptoms, the chances of you having full immunity are very high, higher than a vaccine would be my guess, but studies would be necessary to validate that.

If you simply had a positive test without symptoms, a full 2 shot course would be a good idea.

If you had symptomatic covid and are an allergic type person, avoid the shot, it's not worth it.

Finally, if you are pregnant or about to become pregnant, maybe you should hold off. There simply is no information readily available as to how the vaccine may affect a fetus. Not saying it's good or bad, simply that it's unknown. I've seen anecdotes both ways, got the virus, got the shot, baby fine. Fair enough. If it were my child, I'd hold off because the risk of the disease to a child bearing age woman is pretty low.

[billethkid]

They become an increasingly vulnerable group.
At some point that will become obvious to some and change their stance.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by coffeebean

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

I would agree with this if it were not an international problem. I do however agree that the government should not be able to mandate this given the lack of actual data and what they are discovering about new side effects and every day we are now hearing about people who got the vaccine and still got Covid and died. There is still too much they just don't know.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

The last few years, we simply distort reality.

This is typical distorting the reality of public safety measures in order to perpetuate an ‘alternate reality’.

It utterly misses the fact that your rights as an individual do not supplant the rights of the community as a whole.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Bay Kid

If you had your shots by now you should be able to go back to normal. Those that haven't had their shots should just stay inside or take your chances, but don't penalize others.

This is not true. Just because you have both shots you should NOT "go back to normal".

The evidence is still not clear and in life and death matters it is better to err on the side of caution.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

The issues are international, not local politics. Not local.

I will always accept the opinion of experts over "feelings".

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Bucco

The last few years, we simply distort reality.

This is typical distorting the reality of public safety measures in order to perpetuate an ‘alternate reality’.

It utterly misses the fact that your rights as an individual do not supplant the rights of the community as a whole.

Lol, nothing is “supplanted”. If the vaccine is as effective as declared, unvaccinated people will have no effect on the vaccinated. That “community” will have their butts covered, right? That’s where the distortion begins, when the government tells citizens it knows what is best for them.