[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

If that were the "real issue", then ALL courses in Florida would suck. Courses here are rested, closing some 9's each day, the greens are aerated 3x/year. None of that explains the difference in condition between Southern Oaks/Glenview and Evans Prairie/Havana.

I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

So the question of "why are some courses in better condition than others", might boil down to: "Is management paying for the "completion of tasks" or "paying for results/performance?".

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

[tophcfa]

The highly unusual article in the sports section of today’s Daily Sun, which attempted to address the golfing conditions, doubled down on the lame El Niño excuse. Apparently El Niño hovers over Havana and Evans Prairie, but stays away from the likes of Glenview, Tierra, Hacienda, and Lopez?

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by tophcfa

The highly unusual article in the sports section of today’s Daily Sun, which attempted to address the golfing conditions, doubled down on the lame El Niño excuse. Apparently El Niño hovers over Havana and Evans Prairie, but stays away from the likes of Glenview, Tierra, Hacienda, and Lopez?

I couldn't find the article, thanks for the info. [I just went to their website again and can't find the article. Apparently subscribers are the only ones who get the good stuff]

Played TDS today. El Nino definitely hasn't been there. Probably got tied up in traffic.

I can't wait to watch the Bay Hill on TV this weekend. Hopefully, El Nino hasn't wrecked havoc on that course. Of course, it is 40 miles away and I've heard El Nino is on a short leash.

[Papa_lecki]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

Great post - so true.

[SHIBUMI]

Reinforces my solution of 1 super per Championship Course........agronomy boots on the ground are needed..................

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I couldn't find the article, thanks for the info. [I just went to their website again and can't find the article. Apparently subscribers are the only ones who get the good stuff]

Played TDS today. El Nino definitely hasn't been there. Probably got tied up in traffic.

I can't wait to watch the Bay Hill on TV this weekend. Hopefully, El Nino hasn't wrecked havoc on that course. Of course, it is 40 miles away and I've heard El Nino is on a short leash.

El Nino is a cop out and proof they are incompetent and/or just too lazy to do the work needed. Won't "man up" that this is plain and simple mismanagement.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko

Reinforces my solution of 1 super per Championship Course........agronomy boots on the ground are needed..................

You're right, but the owners would say they already have that.

The problem is, what they (the owners) characterize as a "Superintendent", would be characterized as the #3 or #4 guy on the maintenance crew at a 1st class golf course.

For $18/hour, they're not exactly hiring Manny Francis or Bert Fredericks.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by HORNET

If Villagers ( golfers) would treat the courses properly and clean up, drive on the paths and/ or rough, then maybe things would turn around!

Not a panacea, but it would help. Some of the greens on courses we've played over the past couple of months looked like they had measles from all the ball marks.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Not a panacea, but it would help. Some of the greens on courses we've played over the past couple of months looked like they had measles from all the ball marks.

I think that's a cop out.

After 3 years in TV of 100+ rounds a year, the typical golfer in TV isn't hitting all that many greens. The ones the majority of players are hitting, the ball is rolling onto the green, it's not a shot with a 100' apex, hit with spin. (Apex Height - TrackMan Golf).

The greens in TV are too soft. I hate to keep using the same course example, but the course I know best in this area, is Southern Hills Plantation. Unless it recently rained, 500 typical TV players could play that course every day and there wouldn't be 10 ball marks at the end of the day. Unless it's a PGA Tour Qualifying day at SHPC, no one is making ball marks there. Their greens are hard and running at 10.5 - 11.

Should golfers repair their ball marks? Of course. Players not cleaning up after themselves is a problem at every course. Does it excuse greens with no grass? No. Does it change the fact that TV greens are soft and mushy? No. Can proper maintenance and horticultural practices address ball marks? Yes.

There's usually a reason for excessive ball marks on greens, especially in an environment like TV, where the typical golfer is rolling a 5 iron onto the green.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/ho...ft-greens.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/ho...disappear.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/ho...d-i-care-.html

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

El Nino is a cop out and proof they are incompetent and/or just too lazy to do the work needed. Won't "man up" that this is plain and simple mismanagement.

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found.

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found.

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found.

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found.

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site

I believe this is the link you were trying to post.

https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I believe this is the link you were trying to post.

https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301

The problem was probably I copied it from the post rather than going to the web page and copying it from the URL bar. Thank you

[Papa_lecki]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found.

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found.

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Papa_lecki

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

I don't think there is any one solution.

First of all, while not the whole problem, El Nino and a fungus have caused more problems than usual in our high season, which is why I believe this year has the worst course conditions I've seen in 10 years here (not that most winters are great, but this is probably the worst)

Secondly, I have to believe that the scale of golf maintenance in TV is an enormous problem. We can cite conditions at Juliette Falls, Golden Ocala and Bay Hill all we want, but it has to be easier to take care of 18-36 holes than the 693 holes we have here. The next largest complex I know of in FL is PGA National with 90 holes, and even the conditions at the Squire course are sub-optimal. I think BrianL has a solution---divide the courses into smaller groups and get a first class agronomist in charge. No matter how I add it up, I believe the money as already there.

Lastly, everyone needs to be responsible for the damage they cause. Why do some golfers think they don't have to fill divots, fix ball marks and rake traps? Why do some, especially those with CAP tags, think it is OK to drive up to the edge of greens, between greenside bunkers, and ignore the restrictions of "cart path only" days? My friends son is an assistant pro at a very exclusive club in Boca. They have cameras on every hole, trackers in every golf cart and a central monitoring room where someone is watching all the screens. If you fall behind, you get a warning, and if you don't catch up, you are asked to move up a hole as well as get a "demerit". If you don't rake a trap or fill a divot----demerits. Get a few demerits and you are banned for a week, then a month, and then ejected from the club. With a $150,000 non-refundable bond, you can imagine that everyone avoids demerits.

Obviously we can't do that here, but I would advocate giving the ambassadors more power and have management back them. Let them move people up a hole if warranted. Let them issue a "demerit" for not raking or filling. Yes, a very few ambassadors will go on a power trip, but they'll get weeded out in a hurry and asked to experience "alternative career opportunity enhancement". Possible penalties for accumulating demerits could include banning tee times for a period of time, or my favorite, charging double the greens fee so we can pay someone to clean up the damage these "entitled' golfers cause.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Papa_lecki

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

El Nino this year was not a surprise. It is a well known weather pattern that happens on a somewhat regular basis. Lawn fungus is well known here, and if identified early on can be dealt with before or runs rampant and is spread. There have been complaints about the courses since we moved here over 10 years ago and from what I've read over those ten years, each year has been worse then the year before. A Death Spiral if I may refer to it as such. It has been blamed on everything from snowbirds to El Nino. This has been a tough year on the grass, but we knew (or the ones in charge should have known) and taken PROactive measures to ensure the courses were well fed and protected. The lawn "specialists" should have been in the field weekly if not daily to look for signs of trouble and dealt with it immediately. The current situation could have been much better then what we have now.
No. I am not a master gardener or have any special expertise in golf course management or maintenance. But I am a fairly keen observer and a caring resident and golfer. Several of my neighbors who maintain their own yards have amazing lawns. El Nino hasn't been noticed and it is just a matter of looking with pride at what they have grown and addressing the first sign of a problem. It is called caring.