[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by waynet

I believe greens can be replaced for about $300,000 per 18 holes. Gee, maybe there is another reason,they are cheapskates.

I question your price on replacing greens with dwarf hybrid bermuda. My research shows the cost to replace a green to USGA specifications ran about $50K per green and up 4 years ago. That would compute to almost $1 million per 18 holes. But even if it's accurate, you are talking about $6.5 million and all the down time to do it throughout TV championship courses. Then there are the execs. Tierra will be out of play all summer. Are you willing to lose one course every year? Even in the high season?

Research on the ultra dwarf and dwarf hybrids indicate they are far more sensitive to maintenance issues.

Are you prepared to pay more to play here?

The championship courses are self-supporting. If conditions deteriorate to a point that play drops, they could raise the fees to recoup lost income, which would further discourage play. Or they could address the maintenance issues so that play increases and income is restored. OR they could turn over the courses to a national or regional management company with no ties to TV that could make the courses completely public without Priority access or discounts for residents.

[nitehawk]

When i move here in 2005 there were 7 champion courses and
Cane was just building the third nine. I would have given a 7 or 8 to the course conditions then, as time went on and the newer courses were build the whole championship golf conditions deteriorated. I once referred to the newer courses a cow pastures with sand - everyone jumped all over me --- well i can now say the the rest of the courses can now join the cow pasture category. i moved here mostly for golf - not to go the the square
but that is just me.... I dont really care what kind of grass is on the courses -blue -green - bent or straight - it is not my job - to the powers that control the conditions - fix them --thats your job ---if I performed my job like you perform your job I would have been fired --- as of now i will continue to bash the conditions and architecture of the tv courses whether here or on the web.until this is corrected - I will also tell anyone interested in a move to the villages about the detererating conditions or the championship courses -- that is my part --- now Fix them----If the county can allow a comerical bottler of water to take out millions of gallons from the aquaduct and sell it country wide... then we should be able to use some for irrigation -- what happen to the political pull -- all of the rallies in the squares So i have to have a glass of kool aid --- I need it

[rubicon]

Golf fees vis a vis playing conditions on TV Championship courses is inversely related.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play...but so do other courses.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play but then since they have higher fees they also have more money to spent on maintenance.

The Developer has a habit of spinning off what he feels is not profitable. Sooo too with the Championship courses. time will tell the tale

[Mikeod]

Railing about course conditions on a message board may make you feel better but won't accomplish anything. Since there is a group that feels strongly that course conditions are inadequate, I would suggest that you start with your regular golf group and recruit as many like minded people as possible. Create an agenda outlining point by point what you feel needs to be improved and present it in person to golf administration.

However, I would suggest you avoid terms like cheapskate, ignorant, don't care, cow pasture with sand, as it won't help your cause. I would also suggest you brush up on water allocation rules.

Just remember, if the courses are usually filled (except Palmer), revenues are covering short and long term expenses plus a profit, and homes are selling well, the owner may not agree there is a need to change things.

[kimball]

Originally Posted by djl8412

The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try.

It's been this way for years. They simply don't spend enough to build the courses properly and they surely don't spend enough to maintain them. Have personally talked to top Golf Management many times and get nothing but BS excuses. Why would they care when the vast number of people who live here don't know the difference between good and bad and continue offering unwarranted praise. You are absolutely right that the courses here are substandard. Virtually every trip off site proves time and time again how really bad these courses are. Played Bonifay last week and almost broke a wrist trying to stick a plastic Tee into the ground (18 times) Fairway like an airport runway and the greens hard as a rock. Also played Lopez last week, just a few weeks after the LPGA Legends played it under pristine conditions. The fairways are mowed way to low, the greens were pathetic.

Numerous area courses are far better. (Juliette Falls, Celebration, Stony Brook West, Arlington Ridge, etc, etc, etc.)

[CraigC]

The conditions are very poor at Cane, Mallory, Evans Prairie, and Legacy. Those are the only ones that I have been to in the last few weeks. I have only been here a year, but even with the extreme drought last year, it seemed that the courses were in much better condition at this time last year. Cane was in poor condition last summer, but the others seemed much better last year.

[palmers]

Yes I agree. there is something very bad going on with some of our courses like Cane Garden but on the other hand some of the execs are the best I have ever seen them, ie. Mira Mesa, De La Vista, Chula Vista, Silver Lake.

Originally Posted by djl8412

The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try.

[mickey100]

I played Cane yesterday, and it was like a cow pasture on some of the holes. Do yourself a favor and save your money.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Railing about course conditions on a message board may make you feel better but won't accomplish anything. Since there is a group that feels strongly that course conditions are inadequate, I would suggest that you start with your regular golf group and recruit as many like minded people as possible. Create an agenda outlining point by point what you feel needs to be improved and present it in person to golf administration.

However, I would suggest you avoid terms like cheapskate, ignorant, don't care, cow pasture with sand, as it won't help your cause. I would also suggest you brush up on water allocation rules.

Just remember, if the courses are usually filled (except Palmer), revenues are covering short and long term expenses plus a profit, and homes are selling well, the owner may not agree there is a need to change things.

mikeod: I have a theory that in one way or another the Developer's people monitor this forum, which I view as being very smart. Heck they may even help finance the forum since it is so beneficial to this Development.

I cite as proof the well responded threads on Health Care in The Villages. Now compare that with the recent news blitz in the Daily Sun concerning Welby, etc.

I believe that people should express their true feelings of course with objectivity and fairness. And why it makes no sense for some to respond with ïf you don't like it move."

This forum affords us an opportunity to express our feelings and experiences concerning The Villages without either the resident or the Developer losing face. "What A Forum"

I opine you decide

[batman911]

I doubt conditions will improve as long as residents keep playing and the courses keep making money. Vote with your feet. The courses are business enterprises and they all need to make a profit.

[waynet]

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by waynet

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

how about the fairways ??? Thanks for the information

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by waynet

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

I appreciate the update. Still, you're talking millions of dollars to re-do the championship courses and take each one out of play for up to eight weeks. That also assumes the green base is satisfactory. if so, great. if not, there is much more work to to. Then there is the matter of maintenance. I believe from the website link below that the statement of one summer aeration reflects only part of the story. And, if you search for ultra dwarf bermuda diseases, you will see that there are significant concerns that may be exacerbated by the amount of play these get. And, if the maintenance issues you decry are there, will they be able to maintain the new greens any better than the present ones despite the reduced water demand?

Managing Ultra-dwarf Greens - LSU AgCenter


Truthfully, I would love to play on greens with champion or mini-verde or another ultra dwarf bermuda. The reduced grain and increased speed are desirable. TPC Sawgrass has champion, I believe, and putting there is wonderful. But, IMO, the greens here, once the transition from overseed is complete, are not the big problem with course conditions.

To me, most complaints are with the fairways and the amount of turf cushion from which to play. I attribute this to a few factors. One, IMO, the newer courses, Bonifay and Evans, were opened too soon. They really needed to sit for another growing season to let the grasses mature. I understand that there would be an outcry from the new residents south of 466A who see a golf course they cannot use. But putting all those carts and players on immature grass results in what you see now. Havana also was opened ahead of schedule, primarily because of the damage done to Mallory by the tornado. It took some time before Havana fairways got better.

A second factor is the use of carts itself. Watch any hole on any course, and you will see cart after cart driving right down the middle of the fairway. Multiply this by the number of tee times and you have a recipe for compaction of the turf and delayed recovery of the turf grass . Add to that the number of RA sleeves that allow carts to drive up to 15 feet of the green and you add even more to turf damage. I would not want to see carts restricted to paths only since it would prevent many residents from playing simply because of the walking required from path to ball and back. But perhaps if more used the rough to travel, the fairways would be in better shape. This factor affects all the courses.

Another factor is the availability of water. Again, my information is that TV has a set water allocation from the regional water authority for everything below 466. Homes, landscaping, and golf courses draw from that same allocation. The more homes drawing water, the less is available elsewhere. The local water authority has the ability to reclaim water for irrigation, which reduces the draw on the allocation but is insufficient on its own to meet all irrigation requirements. The courses have tonrely on rainfall to provide immediate water and to fill retention ponds to provide water when it's not raining. When rainfall is insufficient, the fairways suffer as the choice should be to protect the greens first.

I volunteer with a group that monitors all the executive courses for maintenance issues and meets with golf administration quarterly to exchange information. In between meetings, if we see something that needs to be addressed, we can, and do, contact the proper people to let them know. In my years with this group, I have never been given the impression they don't care. Quite the opposite, they have worked with us to improve the quality of the courses. Our suggestions are noted and, when possible, acted upon, which happens more often than not. Perhaps what is needed is a similar group for the championship courses, if one doesn't already exist.

[mickey100]

I question some of the decisions that are made regarding the courses. I personally never thought there was an issue with the greens at Tierra del Sol. The fairways needed work, but the greens seemed fine. So what do they do - pull up all the greens, they'll be replanting, and the course won't be decent for a couple of years. Yet a course like Amelia on Mallory - seems to have a lot of problems with greens - they are dry, don't hold. They had problems for years with the practice green at Mallory, and the pro there showed me a layer of organic material below the surface that was causing the problem. They finally ripped up that green and re-planted, but it took them years, after initially denying there was a problem. I wonder if the courses were really built to the specs they should have been, and now we are paying for that in maintenance issues. Mikeod, I agree that the management cares, but I do wonder about some the decisions that are made.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by mikeod

There is no bent grass in TV. The fairways and greens are bermuda hybrids. Bent grass wouldn't require overseed in the winter.

I don't think that there is very much bent grass south of the Mason Dixon line. Bent grass is very susceptible to many diseases and does not tolerate heat very well. Unless there are some new strains of bent that can be grown in the south I think that almost all the greens and fairways down here are Bermuda.