[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

To me, most complaints are with the fairways and the amount of turf cushion from which to play. I attribute this to a few factors.

You left out the fact that many golfers come from the north where fairways tend to to be longer and fluffy. They have learned to scoop the ball rather than to correctly hit down and through the turf. Most good player would rather play off of rock hard fairways than to have grass growing up around the ball. Go play golf over in Scotland on some of the greatest, most renown courses in the world. You'll see how golf is meant to be played.

[PaPaLarry]

Whats the average price to replace old green with new green? $30,000.00?

[RVRoadie]

I have heard that it is the counties that control the water allocations for the golf courses, not TV. TV may own the retention ponds and irrigation systems, but not the water in them. Since the course conditions are pretty much the result of a lack of water, shouldn't complaints be directed at the counties?

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by mickey100

I question some of the decisions that are made regarding the courses. I personally never thought there was an issue with the greens at Tierra del Sol. The fairways needed work, but the greens seemed fine. So what do they do - pull up all the greens, they'll be replanting, and the course won't be decent for a couple of years. Yet a course like Amelia on Mallory - seems to have a lot of problems with greens - they are dry, don't hold. They had problems for years with the practice green at Mallory, and the pro there showed me a layer of organic material below the surface that was causing the problem. They finally ripped up that green and re-planted, but it took them years, after initially denying there was a problem. I wonder if the courses were really built to the specs they should have been, and now we are paying for that in maintenance issues. Mikeod, I agree that the management cares, but I do wonder about some the decisions that are made.

A lot depends on what you're used to. I started out playing golf in the northeast and remember that the better courses had bent greens that held almost any shot. Then I went west and played on hybrid bermuda greens. I thought they were bad at first because they were hard and would only hold a short iron that was well struck. I made friends with the course superintendent, who had a lot of experience with both grasses, and he told me that a healthy bermuda green will be more firm than a bent green in general. Part of it is the amount of water a bent green requires, especially over the summer even up north. He also felt the base was different which also contributed to the firmness. Bent roots are fairly shallow, whereas bermuda roots can get very deep, although the majority of roots will be in the top 3 feet or so. This is why bermuda needs less water and why it thrives in the south.

I can't tell you why Tierra's greens are being re-done and I agree they seemed to be good. Perhaps there was an ongoing problem that required an inordinate amount of work to keep them that way. I don't know. Perhaps they were approaching the end of their useful life and they decided to remake them at the same time they reworked the rest of the course.

I, too, wonder if the construction method used is optimal for long term health of the courses or if it's aimed at creating a quick greening up but creates maintenance nightmares in the future. And there is also the question of funding renovation. We are lucky in that all the execs north of 466 plus the Pimlico courses get funding from the AAC and, so far, there hasn't been a problem with funds for maintenance and upgrades. And they have approved a ten year plan for maintenance and renovation for these courses. I wonder if there is a similar plan and funding for the championship courses.

Again, I would like to see if there is an opportunity for a resident group to interact with golf administration regarding the championship courses. Even at the non-equity clubs I belonged to, there was an opportunity to discuss concerns with management/ownership. They may not agree, but at least we were heard.

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by RVRoadie

I have heard that it is the counties that control the water allocations for the golf courses, not TV. TV may own the retention ponds and irrigation systems, but not the water in them. Since the course conditions are pretty much the result of a lack of water, shouldn't complaints be directed at the counties?

I don't think that's true. There are two large water districts that control water allocation to TV. St. John's controls Lake County (among many other counties) and Southwest Florida for the rest of TV. There are significant fines involved for overuse of water by TV.

[glencus]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

You left out the fact that many golfers come from the north where fairways tend to to be longer and fluffy. They have learned to scoop the ball rather than to correctly hit down and through the turf. Most good player would rather play off of rock hard fairways than to have grass growing up around the ball. Go play golf over in Scotland on some of the greatest, most renown courses in the world. You'll see how golf is meant to be played.

Recently hired by Golf Administration????? They sing the same tune.

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by glencus

Recently hired by Golf Administration????? They sing the same tune.

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

[zcaveman]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

Maybe I am confused. We are not in Scotland. We are in TV. We have water restrictions but we also have rain (sometimes). The courses that I play seem pretty good. But then I only play north of 466. I guess I don't know what we are all looking for. I doubt that we will see the courses in TV that we see on the TV. Our TV courses are not trying to get professional golfers or put our courses on TV.

Try the other courses in TV and see if you can find some that you like.


Z

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by zcaveman

Maybe I am confused. We are not in Scotland. We are in TV. We have water restrictions but we also have rain (sometimes). The courses that I play seem pretty good. But then I only play north of 466. I guess I don't know what we are all looking for. I doubt that we will see the courses in TV that we see on the TV. Our TV courses are not trying to get professional golfers or put our courses on TV.

Try the other courses in TV and see if you can find some that you like.


Z

No Z. You're not confused. Got off track. I agree the courses north of 466 tend to better since they have had more time to mature. Hacienda had problems because of inadequate irrigation installed during construction, I believe. That has been corrected.

And it's true our courses are not intended by design to challenge pros. They are designed for the population that lives here, and the vastly different skill levels of our fellow residents.

But course conditions affect everyone differently. Depends on what your accustomed to and your expectations. I think we've had a good discussion in this thread.

[djl8412]

We have been in a rain deficit for a couple of years, maybe more. Just look at many of the retention ponds. They have averaged a very low level consistently the past few years. Anyone check out Paradise Lake? It's already a pasture once covered by water earlier than last summer. Yet, when we do have bouts of heavy rain and the ponds get filled the irrigation systems run day and night as "flood control" pouring water into poor drainage areas instead of saving it for times of drought. I received some flack a while back for criticizing the "flood control" policy. I was informed that we have one of the most advanced irrigation system here. If we do then those who oversee it need to re-think some of the automatic discharges in time of heavy rains. Adding water to already standing, stagnant water on fairways reeks of stupidity and invites damage to turf.

[glencus]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

Using this theory, how would you account for the fact that the Lopez Course was turned into exactly the opposite of what you describe for the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Great pains were taken to grow the grass higher so the ball sits up in the fairways. Greens were about 11 on a stintmeter. The greens were soft and held shots. The course was pristine. It is now back to where it was for what I'll call resident conditions. I've played golf all over the world (yes, including Scotland) and have never seen conditions as bad as they regularly are under standard Villages Conditions. Oh, by the way, how many touring pros play here to warrant maintaining our courses in the ideal condition you describe. These courses are ideal for no one but residents, many of whom will defend how things are done whether right or wrong, a concept that many have not yet grasped. Oh yes, I've also played US Open Courses, a venue used for the Rider Cup and a course that hosted the PGA championship, a US Women,' Open venue and never observed "Resident Conditions" as I see here day in and day out..

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by glencus

Using this theory, how would you account for the fact that the Lopez Course was turned into exactly the opposite of what you describe for the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Great pains were taken to grow the grass higher so the ball sits up in the fairways. Greens were about 11 on a stintmeter. The greens were soft and held shots. The course was pristine. It is now back to where it was for what I'll call resident conditions. I've played golf all over the world (yes, including Scotland) and have never seen conditions as bad as they regularly are under standard Villages Conditions. Oh, by the way, how many touring pros play here to warrant maintaining our courses in the ideal condition you describe. These courses are ideal for no one but residents, many of whom will defend how things are done whether right or wrong, a concept that many have not yet grasped. Oh yes, I've also played US Open Courses, a venue used for the Rider Cup and a course that hosted the PGA championship, a US Women,' Open venue and never observed "Resident Conditions" as I see here day in and day out..

Did you miss the article in the paper that described the special work that was done to Lopez in preparation for the tournament? Do you realize that the tournament was played with overseeded fairways and greens? I played Lopez the Monday after the tournament and it was great, but it is not something that can be sustained on a daily basis with the amount of play here.

Probably the best comparison to what we have here may be the condition of Torrey Pines for the Open and for the regular tour event compared to the conditions the rest of the time as a municipal course with a lot of play. There is no comparison. It doesn't look like the same course.

It's clear that we cannot reach common ground in this discussion. I hope you enjoy your time here on and off the golf course.

[nitehawk]

i will enjoy my time both off and on the golf courses - mostly off the couses in TV - I will continue to knock the course conditions in TV until things change. What i gather from all of the experts is that the pros would love to come and play here in tv where the fairways are void of grass and hard as rock - so now they can get spin on the ball. you will need spin to stop you ball when it hits the rock hard green. i also gather that maybe the people from scotland or england would love to come and play also, as that is the way golf was meant to be played. i used to play tennis with a wooden racket and ski with 7 foot skis, but times change ---- i have not seen any pros practicing on our courses --- should be a great play to practice. i bow to the experts - so have a good time

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by nitehawk

i will enjoy my time both off and on the golf courses - mostly off the couses in TV - I will continue to knock the course conditions in TV until things change. What i gather from all of the experts is that the pros would love to come and play here in tv where the fairways are void of grass and hard as rock - so now they can get spin on the ball. you will need spin to stop you ball when it hits the rock hard green. i also gather that maybe the people from scotland or england would love to come and play also, as that is the way golf was meant to be played. i used to play tennis with a wooden racket and ski with 7 foot skis, but times change ---- i have not seen any pros practicing on our courses --- should be a great play to practice. i bow to the experts - so have a good time

Sorry you have missed the point of this thread. Ranting and raving about course conditions on a message board that is independent of TV will accomplish nothing except raise blood pressures. From the input of other posters, it is apparent that contacting golf administration as an individual nets nothing. (Especially if terms such as ignorant, cheapskate, or uncaring are used.) There exists a volunteer group that has been effective in working with golf administration on the exec courses. Perhaps a similar group could be formed for the championship courses.

One concern with that is that we have no investment in the championship courses. They were not promised to us as the execs were. They are privately owned. Therefore, they have no obligation to form such a group, but there is no harm in trying. But the focus has to be on what WE (residents, golf administration, and ownership) can do to improve it.

So, my point is that abandoning TV courses is certainly your prerogative. But it is also certain to result in no improvement. Even if you multiply yourself by 100 or 200 or more, the loss of play you represent will go completely unnoticed.

Saying "Fix it!" and walking away won't do it.

[mickey100]

I agree. I think we need to bombard the golf adminstration people with phone calls, letters, etc., as well as letters to the Daily Sun. Keep that wheel squeaking or nothing will get done. And it doesn't hurt to keep up the comments and posts on TOTV. When potential buyers see the negative posts, and word gets back to the real estate salespeople and upwards to the Morses, it may help things along as well. Here is an email address to start with - thevillagesgolfdivision@gmail.com and an address and phone number:
Country Club Administration 352-753-3396 1000 Main St. Suite 248 32159

As MikeOD said, one person making a phone call now and then isn't going to cut it. Hundreds of phone calls and emails are going to get someone's attention.