[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Unlike other manufacturers Titleist does not pay their Pros for playing the ball. :

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Titleist like its golf balls pays for performance.............they don't pay a standard dollar amount contract... you don't get a millions for breathing, you have to earn it.

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Titleist did pay someone for breathing...........but it wasn't to promote their golf ball...... It was a tribute to a great ball striker, some say the best ever................Mo Norman............ I stand corrected

So now you understand that Titleist DOES pay professionals to use their golf ball and has for at least 50 years.?

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Titleist is primarily a golf ball company. Callaway, Taylormade ,Ping, Sxrizon, are primarily golf club companies...... Bridgestone is a tire company that doesn't make rubber golf balls
Kirkland makes food products.

Titleist is not a "company" that makes golf balls. Titleist is a Brand Name owned by the Acushnet Holdings Corp, which was formerly owned by Fortune Brands and is a public company, in which Fila Korea owns a controlling interest. Acushnet Holdings makes Titleist golf balls.

Bridgestone is actually, Bridgestone Golf, Inc.
Bridgestone Golf manufactures golf balls in Covington, Georgia. They are a subsidiary of Bridgestone Sports Co. Ltd., a Japanese company that also makes tires.

It's obvious you don't like "rubber companies", but Acushnet began as a "rubber company" and later split into 2 companies. Almost all golf balls in the world are made by companies who make tires.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by lawgolfer

The two worst were a set of PXG irons that had a swingweight of C2 and felt like you were trying to hit the ball with a paper bag tied on the end of a stick. The next worst was a set of Ping woods in which the driver was C9; the 3 wood C6; and the 5 wood D6. I couldn't believe that either set had been allowed to leave the factory.

Swingweight is probably the least relevant of any golf club characteristic. It has zero basis in science. It's simply a calculation of the weight, based on a 14" fulcrum, which was a number Robert Adams picked from the sky. The average person could never tell the difference between a Swingweight of C-6 vs C-9.

Overall weight, weight distribution, shaft weight vs clubhead weight, flex characteristics and balance point, are all much more important than Swingweight.

Archimedes once said, "Give me a place to stand and I can move the earth", which perfect illustrates fallacy of Swingweight as a measurement. You can give a Telephone Pole a "swingweight" of C-9 if you wanted to. It means nothing.

If you really wanted to quantify a club's "feel", the only way to do it, would probably be a MOI Swing Auditor, which could theoretically match clubs to "feel" the same. What's next? Did you tell them you were going to find the NBP of the shafts, too?

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

There is not one Villager who needs to be paying the premium price for ProV's.
It's all marketing and all the Village purchasers are suckers.

As was once said of me at a Town Meeting, "I don't want to be quoted in the newspapers as agreeing with Brian, but I agree with him".

You're probably 98% correct. There's hardly a golfer in The Villages, who benefits from the playing characteristics and consistency of Titleist golf balls.

There are even fewer, whose golf game justifies the nearly $5/per ball cost. Based on the number of Titleists I find, apparently there's a whole lot of "ego purchasing" going on.

[SHIBUMI]

The best you will get out of another golf ball is 4-5 yards. I cant believe that matters to anyone. The best you will get out of a golf lesson is 15-20 yards.

Its your choice...........

Originally Posted by BrianL99

mrf6969 is wrong on both counts.

There are plenty of Swing Speeds over 90 in TV and hardly anyone benefits from a "softer ball". It's all about "feel". Some people like the feel of a softer ball, so they use one.

A harder golf ball will travel further, under almost all conditions. The only time that changes, is when spin becomes an issue. (If a player cannot produce sufficient spin to get the ball in the air.)

If I'm not mistaken, you said you play Vice Pro Tour? That ball is recommended for higher swing speeds, but is longer for most swing speeds, than the Vice Pro Soft. Personally, I hit the Tour Pro about 4-5 yards longer than the Pro Soft and my swing speed rarely reaches 90.

[SHIBUMI]

Golf is about individual feel and about perception.

I don't hit a nitro because just looking at the name gives me a negative feeling. You want the ball you hit to give you a positive feeling. Part of the sacred script is the font for Titleist.
I enjoy driving a BMW even though I only drive 6,000 miles a year. So what!

What a player should play on paper and what he likes to play may be 2 different things. It's a feel good thing. If it weren't, then why are folks with 8 handicaps or more playing PXG.
Over priced just like a BMW.

If you try to make sense out of golfers you're going down the wrong road. At any level, you play that which makes you feel the best. Lessons and not equipment are the best road for improvement.

Originally Posted by BrianL99

As was once said of me at a Town Meeting, "I don't want to be quoted in the newspapers as agreeing with Brian, but I agree with him".

You're probably 98% correct. There's hardly a golfer in The Villages, who benefits from the playing characteristics and consistency of Titleist golf balls.

There are even fewer, whose golf game justifies the nearly $5/per ball cost. Based on the number of Titleists I find, apparently there's a whole lot of "ego purchasing" going on.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

The best you will get out of another golf ball is 4-5 yards. I cant believe that matters to anyone. The best you will get out of a golf lesson is 15-20 yards.

Its your choice...........

You're only off by 15 yards, but why quibble?

Just a moment...

[SHIBUMI]

Yes, total weight is a much better feel criteria. A swing weight is the weight of a dime, so of course feeling changes are very difficult. swing weight is a little nebulis, but, if the head on the shaft doesn't balance with the tip of the shaft then weight is added to the tip to create a balance. (Fulcrum). Key word here is weight is added, they are not likely to shave the head. So, will a D5 feel heavier than a C5, of course.
Put 10 dimes in your hand and you will feel a difference from 1 dime.

Shaft flex is far too complicated, as there is no standard. The flex is constant thru one manufacturer but not the next. The club makers don't make the shafts. They are contracted to make their heads feel and act the way they want. A Ping stiff is different from a Callaway Stiff from a Titleist stiff. Mostly due to flex points. And when you change shafts you risk the head not acting like it was designed. Answer is to find your flex within the ones offered by the company whose clubs you bought.

People are not MOI Swing monitors, and thats who swing the clubs. It's like saying the Iron Byron Machine is the best tool for hitting research. If you put legs and a brain on that machine it would hit them just as crooked. LOL

We keep going back to the same thing. Get a swing before you buy clubs. Watch the demo days someday. 90% of the folks doing the demo, don't have a golf swing. Isn't it a great business!

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Swingweight is probably the least relevant of any golf club characteristic. It has zero basis in science. It's simply a calculation of the weight, based on a 14" fulcrum, which was a number Robert Adams picked from the sky. The average person could never tell the difference between a Swingweight of C-6 vs C-9.

Overall weight, weight distribution, shaft weight vs clubhead weight, flex characteristics and balance point, are all much more important than Swingweight.

Archimedes once said, "Give me a place to stand and I can move the earth", which perfect illustrates fallacy of Swingweight as a measurement. You can give a Telephone Pole a "swingweight" of C-9 if you wanted to. It means nothing.

If you really wanted to quantify a club's "feel", the only way to do it, would probably be a MOI Swing Auditor, which could theoretically match clubs to "feel" the same.

[SHIBUMI]

Humans did not hit those golf balls. Humans don't hit the center of the club face that often. Factor the Human element in and you will get 5-6 yards. Try it. Regular golfers don't get 115 mph speed.

If YOU go out and hit those 2 balls, you will not get a 20 yard difference.
Nice advertising though!

Originally Posted by BrianL99

You're only off by 15 yards, but why quibble?

Just a moment...

[SHIBUMI]

thanks, if you look at your different swing speed charts you will see a 5-6 yard difference top to bottom as I mentioned. That puts the human element into the equation. A very nice chart.

Originally Posted by BrianL99

You're only off by 15 yards, but why quibble?

Just a moment...

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Yes, total weight is a much better feel criteria. A swing weight is the weight of a dime, so of course feeling changes are very difficult. swing weight is a little nebulis, but, if the head on the shaft doesn't balance with the tip of the shaft then weight is added to the tip to create a balance. (Fulcrum).

Please stop confusing people. "Swingweight" is not a "weight", it is a "relative weight, based on a 14" fulcrum. A Swingweight can't be "the weight of a dime", again, because it is ONLY a relative weight. It's not a like a "Caret", which has an absolute weight.

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

... the flex is constant thru one manufacturer but not the next. The club makers don't make the shafts. They are contracted to make their heads feel and act the way they want. A Ping stiff is different from a Callaway Stiff from a Titleist stiff. Mostly due to flex points. And when you change shafts you risk the head not acting like it was designed. Answer is to find your flex within the ones offered by the company whose clubs you bought.

Again, that is not correct. The only reasonably accepted way to subjectively measure shaft "stiffness" is with a CPM machine. Unfortunately, that only measures frequency at specific points, so it's not a fair characterization of the flex, along the length of the shaft.

Manufacturers are free to put a Flex Designation on their shafts, in any way they wish. They all measure flex differently and design individual shafts differently. Nary a single manufacture has a specific "butt (or tip) frequency" that causes them to designate a shaft as "stiff", "medium" or otherwise.

In other words, your statement that a Manufacturers flex standard is constant throughout their line, is incorrect.

Attached are the Specs for the Fujikura Ventus line of shafts (which I play). You'll notice that EVERY shaft model designated as "Regular Flex", has a different amount of measured flex.

Almost every golf club manufacturer, uses an "off the shelf" shaft, that their specific tests show, will appeal to the widest number of customers. It's a search for the lowest common denominator. There has never been a golf club sold in the universe, that a given player couldn't improve its performance, by installing an after-market shaft, matched to their swing characteristics. Unfortunately, the search for the optimal shaft is cost prohibited, given the minuscule return for most people.

[SHIBUMI]

sorry wrong word........the shafts a club maker selects have a constant flex standard. And they picked those shafts to make the head perform as it was designed.

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Please stop confusing people. "Swingweight" is not a "weight", it is a "relative weight, based on a 14" fulcrum. A Swingweight can't be "the weight of a dime", again, because it is ONLY a relative weight. It's not a like a "Caret", which has an absolute weight.




Again, that is not correct. The only reasonably accepted way to subjectively measure shaft "stiffness" is with a CPM machine. Unfortunately, that only measures frequency at specific points, so it's not a fair characterization of the flex, along the length of the shaft.

Manufacturers are free to put a Flex Designation on their shafts, in any way they wish. They all measure flex differently and design individual shafts differently. Nary a single manufacture has a specific "butt (or tip) frequency" that causes them to designate a shaft as "stiff", "medium" or otherwise.

In other words, your statement that a Manufacturers flex standard is constant throughout their line, is incorrect.

Attached are the Specs for the Fujikura Ventus line of shafts (which I play). You'll notice that EVERY shaft model designated as "Regular Flex", has a different amount of measured flex.

Almost every golf club manufacturer, uses an "off the shelf" shaft, that their specific tests show, will appeal to the widest number of customers. It's a search for the lowest common denominator. There has never been a golf club sold in the universe, that a given player couldn't improve its performance, by installing an after-market shaft, matched to their swing characteristics. Unfortunately, the search for the optimal shaft is cost prohibited, given the minuscule return for most people.

[SHIBUMI]

Okay, something has to tip the scale. That something is not a relative weight. It's an actual weight even if you think the scale is bogus. add real weight to one end and the scale changes.
That real weight is the weight of 1 dime for 1 movement on the scale.

Although you want to trash the scale, something has to move the meter reading. It's a dime per measurement . However, your right in a golfers ability to feel it vs total weight.



on the scale

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Please stop confusing people. "Swingweight" is not a "weight", it is a "relative weight, based on a 14" fulcrum. A Swingweight can't be "the weight of a dime", again, because it is ONLY a relative weight. It's not a like a "Caret", which has an absolute weight.




Again, that is not correct. The only reasonably accepted way to subjectively measure shaft "stiffness" is with a CPM machine. Unfortunately, that only measures frequency at specific points, so it's not a fair characterization of the flex, along the length of the shaft.

Manufacturers are free to put a Flex Designation on their shafts, in any way they wish. They all measure flex differently and design individual shafts differently. Nary a single manufacture has a specific "butt (or tip) frequency" that causes them to designate a shaft as "stiff", "medium" or otherwise.

In other words, your statement that a Manufacturers flex standard is constant throughout their line, is incorrect.

Attached are the Specs for the Fujikura Ventus line of shafts (which I play). You'll notice that EVERY shaft model designated as "Regular Flex", has a different amount of measured flex.

Almost every golf club manufacturer, uses an "off the shelf" shaft, that their specific tests show, will appeal to the widest number of customers. It's a search for the lowest common denominator. There has never been a golf club sold in the universe, that a given player couldn't improve its performance, by installing an after-market shaft, matched to their swing characteristics. Unfortunately, the search for the optimal shaft is cost prohibited, given the minuscule return for most people.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Okay, something has to tip the scale. That something is not a relative weight. It's an actual weight even if you think the scale is bogus. add real weight to one end and the scale changes.
That real weight is the weight of 1 dime for 1 movement on the scale.

Although you want to trash the scale, something has to move the meter reading. It's a dime per measurement . However, your right in a golfers ability to feel it vs total weight.
on the scale

That is incorrect.

It depends on which end you place the dime. A dime "weighs" a different amount (to simplify, using your words), depending on which end of the scale you place the dime ... in other words, its distance from the fulcrum will determine its "weight".

If you put the dime on the "grip end", it will "weigh" only about 1/3 of what it would "weigh" on the Clubhead side (using a Driver). Again, the Fulcrum is at 14". (For simplicity's sake, L X W = moment.)

Read Archimedes Law of the Lever. (Archimedes' Law of the Lever)

Which is why a Telephone Pole can have the EXACT same Swingweight, as a Taylormade Driver.

I'm not a fan of Dave Tutelman, but he does a good job of explaining exactly what a Swingweight Scale measures and why: Design Notes - Heft: swingweight and MOI p1

FYI, this is also the theory behind "counter-weighted" putter grips or counter-balanced putters. By placing weight directly under the top of the grip, you can "fool" the Swingweight scale. CounterCore Putter Weights

[SHIBUMI]

I am on a seesaw and I weigh 250 lbs, the person on the other end of the seesaw
weighs 100 lbs. in order for the seesaw to have even balance, our goal, we have to add 150 lbs to the 100 lb end

I have a shaft on a fulcrum, the tip end of the shaft with the head is heavier than the butt end, the goal is equal balance, so I have to add something to the butt end to bring it into balance. The scale I am using right or wrong, says the club is e4 and I want it to read D4. So I put a banana on the butt end, but, I still need more, problem is the bananas are not all the same. So I decide to use a dime. I add one dime down on the butt end and the scale reads e3. It will take 10 dimes to get to D4.

now, whether D4 has been implanted by an alien creature or not, the fact remains that the weight of the dime changed the reading. It changed the reading....the guy on the seesaw moved to equal........there is nothing relative here except the scale itself
the dime changed the reading. The dime is actual and not theoretical. I will assume you have never used a swing weight scale and given it the dime test. Just so you know, whether the dime is heads or tails doesn't matter.
Again, total weight is always more important............. good nite Brian

Originally Posted by BrianL99

That is incorrect.

It depends on which end you place the dime. A dime "weighs" a different amount (to simplify, using your words), depending on which end of the scale you place the dime ... in other words, its distance from the fulcrum will determine its "weight".

If you put the dime on the "grip end", it will "weigh" only about 1/3 of what it would "weigh" on the Clubhead side (using a Driver). Again, the Fulcrum is at 14". (For simplicity's sake, L X W = moment.)

Read Archimedes Law of the Lever. (Archimedes' Law of the Lever)

Which is why a Telephone Pole can have the EXACT same Swingweight, as a Taylormade Driver.

I'm not a fan of Dave Tutelman, but he does a good job of explaining exactly what a Swingweight Scale measures and why: Design Notes - Heft: swingweight and MOI p1

FYI, this is also the theory behind "counter-weighted" putter grips or counter-balanced putters. By placing weight directly under the top of the grip, you can "fool" the Swingweight scale. CounterCore Putter Weights

[tophcfa]

I buy my golf balls from lost golf balls.com. I get a bucket of 96 premium quality Titleist Velocities for about $1 per ball. The balls are as good as new and a bucket easily lasts 2-3 years.