[Rainger99]

Originally Posted by Vermilion Villager

My point is instead of asking a bunch of people on this forum what to do, you may want to go right to the entity that is supposed to know what to do.

They are supposed to know what to do but in my experience, if you call many stores or companies seeking information, they do not know the answer to your question.

Several of the people on this forum have been very helpful.

[rustyp]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Golf The Villages

The whole video is good but the meat of what you are asking starts at 1:30:50

Originally Posted by NoMo50

This information is not correct. There certainly are placement points, and they are the first item considered in any request made in the tee time system.

Also, you do not automatically get 3 points to cancel/no show. One point is assessed for obtaining a reservation, whether thru a request or direct reservation. If you play, it remains as one point. If you cancel a reservation 2 or three days prior to the reserved time, you get one penalty point, for a total of 2 points. If you cancel the day of play, or are a no-show, you get 2 penalty points, for a total of 3.

The algorithm used by the tee time system is very complex, but in it's simplest terms you can count on this: If playing championship courses, Enhanced Members will always have priority over those without it. On executive courses, groups that include guests will go to the bottom of the pecking order. Groups that include golfers with a high number of points will struggle for tee times during the busy season.

Excellent - you understand the system.
Most golfers complaining about their group not getting tee times in high season do not understand the preferred placement part of the point system. At 1:37:37 of the video it is explained. It takes some concentrated listening to totally digest it. I perhaps can help - Think of it as two tiers - 1 your placement priority 2 your usage points.Your placement tier is the first hierarchy in the algorithm then the points usage average kicks in. Thus everyone with the highest placement priority followed by rank order usage points only within that placement category comes first. Then the same thing starts all over for the second highest placement category.
My experience is golfers that play championship courses often usually have a grip on this. Very few executive groups realize there is both a placement and point categories.

[mntlblok]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Excellent - you understand the system.
Most golfers complaining about their group not getting tee times in high season do not understand the preferred placement part of the point system. At 1:37:37 of the video it is explained. It takes some concentrated listening to totally digest it. I perhaps can help - Think of it as two tiers - 1 your placement priority 2 your usage points.Your placement tier is the first hierarchy in the algorithm then the points usage average kicks in. Thus everyone with the highest placement priority followed by rank order usage points only within that placement category comes first. Then the same thing starts all over for the second highest placement category.
My experience is golfers that play championship courses often usually have a grip on this. Very few executive groups realize there is both a placement and point categories.

Thank you!

[tophcfa]

Originally Posted by NoMo50

Placement points are the first value considered when the tee time system's algorithm goes to work. Enhanced Guest = 2 points; Resident Member = 6 points.

I get it that my opinion will never change the system, but that is just wrong. NO GUEST should ever have priority over a resident. Plus, that allows enhanced members to game the system. They can request spots for guests, blocking out other residents, and then once the time is allocated they can substitute in golfers with higher placement points.

Otherwise, I find the allocation algorithm to be a very good effort at fairness. Especially as it pertains to Executive golf.

[jmaccallum]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

I am trying to figure out how points are calculated for golf requests. What is the difference between placement points and reservation points? And how are they calculated?

I have read the Golfing in the Villages pamphlet, looked at the golf website, and called the golf office for an explanation and I am still baffled.

If someone plays twice a week at an executive course, how many points do they have when they are trying to make a request for the following week?

2 points

You need to go to Good Golf Seminar. They are free and explain how the system works. Takes about 2 hours of your time, but with fellow golfers.

The Tee Time system is Not a first come - first served system. Rather it is Point Based. Points count when making a Request for a tee time, but do not matter if you are Reserving an open time after Requests have been filled (the system fulfills Request right after midnite 3 days before the day of Request).

Again, you need to got to Good Golf Seminar. Look for times on the Villages App.

We have only had issues making Request for big groups - 5 or 6 foursomes - during the Winter. Have never had a problem making a Request for 4, 2, or 1 during anytime of year.

[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

I am trying to figure out how points are calculated for golf requests. What is the difference between placement points and reservation points? And how are they calculated?

I have read the Golfing in the Villages pamphlet, looked at the golf website, and called the golf office for an explanation and I am still baffled.

If someone plays twice a week at an executive course, how many points do they have when they are trying to make a request for the following week?

Verrrry complicated and you will need to be a computer geek to figure out. Met the person who wrote the program and he admitted that it was very complicated. Best way is to forget about it and do your best to NEVER cancel a reservation or cancel as early as possible. Pay close attention to weather when making your tee time.

[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by tophcfa

Golfers using the online system to request t times. That’s a lot of Villagers.

Personally I do not care. Whatever I or anyone else does is not going to change anything. The computer system answers to no one. Put my tee time in and hope to get it. If I don't I go back in and find an open tee time.

[beaglebrain]

Note that this is copied spreadsheet and that some of locations of elements are not aligned. I can send the actual spreadsheet if you send me your email addr


Tee times are assigned through the T time system from requests made 4 to 7 days before the target play date. The Championship and Executive assigning systems are independent of each other – playing executive courses does not affect championship course play.
The order of the course and time reserved uses a two level selection process - Placement points first then Reservation points.
Priority members and priority guests are considered to be resident members and resident guests for Executive courses. Placement points are assigned according to the following table noting that being a priority member does not affect executive placement points only championship placement points.


Champ Exec
Priority Member Placement Points 1 6
Priority Guest Placement Points 2 7
Resident Member Placement Points 6 6
Resident Guest Placement Points 7 7
Reservation points are assigned when a reservation is granted – one point per player per reservation. Each reservation point lasts one week from the reservation date.
Extra reservation points are assigned when the reservation is skipped or changed for various reasons.
Deleting or substituting for a player after a reservation is made but before the reservation date adds one reservation point for that player for a total of two reservation points for that reservation. The player substituting in receives one reservation point.
No changes to the reservation can be made on the reservation date. If a player does not play on the reservation date, two reservation points are added for a total of three reservation points.
However, for executive courses, if a player reports to the reserved course starter shack on the reservation date prior to the scheduled T time but does not play, no extra reservation points are assigned. This assumes the player pays any trail fee or green fee if owed.

Once the order is determined, the reservation of a course depends on the day selected, the time or course selected and finally on the availability of the course and time for the number of players.

If the process determines that the time window cannot be satisfied but there is availability outside the time window, a reservation may be made and the players will receive a fraction of one reservation point.

An example of using AVERAGE Placement points and AVERAGE Reservation points on Championship courses follows – note there are some ties – unsure how they are resolved
# Priority Members # Priority Guests # Resident Members # Resident Guests Placement Points Placement Point Avg Placement Sequence Reservation Point Avg Assigned
4


4 1.00 1 0.50 1st
4


4 1.00 1 1.00 2nd
4


4 1.00 1 2.50 3rd
3 1

5 1.25 2 1.00 4th
3 1

5 1.25 2 1.50 5th
2 2

6 1.50 3 0.00 6th
2 2

6 1.50 3 1.00 7th
1 1

3 1.50 3 2.00 8th
2 2

6 1.50 3 2.00 8th
1 1

3 1.50 3 3.00 9th
1 1

3 1.50 3 4.00 10th
1 3

7 1.75 4 1.00 11th
3
1
9 2.25 5 4.00 12th
2
1
8 2.67 6 1.00 13th
2
2
14 3.50 7 0.50 14th
2
1 1 15 3.75 8 1.50 15th
1 1 1 1 16 4.00 9 2.50 16th


4
24 6.00 10 1.00 17th


2 2 26 6.50 11 0.50 18th


An example of using AVERAGE Placement points and AVERAGE Reservation points on Executive courses follows – note there are some ties – unsure how they are resolved
# Priority Members # Priority Guests # Resident Members # Resident Guests Placement Points Placement Point Avg Placement Sequence Reservation Point Avg Assigned
4


24 6.0 1 0 1st
4
1
30 6.0 1 1 2nd
2
1
18 6.0 1 2 3rd


4
24 6.0 1 4 4th
4 1

31 6.2 2 0 5th
3
1 1 31 6.2 2 2 6th
2
2 1 31 6.2 2 2 6th
3 1

25 6.3 3 2 7th
3 1

25 6.3 3 2 7th
2
1 1 25 6.3 3 2 7th
2 2 1
32 6.4 4 4 8th
2 2

26 6.5 5 3 9th
1 1 1 1 26 6.5 5 3 9th
1 1

13 6.5 5 4 10th
1 1

13 6.5 5 5 11th
1 1

13 6.5 5 5 11th


2 2 26 6.5 5 6 12th
2 2
1 33 6.6 6 5 13th


2 4 40 6.7 7 2 14th
1 3

27 6.8 8 1 15th


2 6 54 6.8 8 2 16th

--
Best Regards
Matt

[NoMo50]

Originally Posted by tophcfa

I get it that my opinion will never change the system, but that is just wrong. NO GUEST should ever have priority over a resident. Plus, that allows enhanced members to game the system. They can request spots for guests, blocking out other residents, and then once the time is allocated they can substitute in golfers with higher placement points.

Otherwise, I find the allocation algorithm to be a very good effort at fairness. Especially as it pertains to Executive golf.

Yes, and some folks cheat on their taxes, too...which isn't fair.

An Enhanced member could submit a request with a guest, and then substitute a non-enhanced member after a reservation was granted. This could be totally legitimate, or he/she could be "gaming" the system if done on a frequent basis. The algorithm used by the tee time system has the ability to identify what is considered abuse of the system, and punish the offender. I know a resident who had his golfing privileges suspended for frequently using "ghost golfers" on requests. He tried to claim that he didn't know there was anything wrong with that, but his argument fell on deaf ears.

[NoMo50]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

Great explanation!!!

Placement points were what confused me because I think I saw a post where someone said that he tries to keep his group point average below 3 points. Wouldn't that be impossible if everyone has 6 placement points to start with?

So if I play 5 times in the past week, I have 5 points for playing and 6 placement points for a total of 11 points?

And If I played 2 times last week, I would have 8 points?

And if I didn't play at all, I would still have 6 points?

There really is no need to go too deep into the woods when thinking about this. Again, the algorithm used by the system is very complex, but it does a really good job of keeping the assignment of tee times as fair as possible.

First off, the Placement points and Reservation points are not added together. They are considered separately, with Placement points being looked at first. Everyone has Placement points, but not everyone has Reservation points. When you make a request in the system, you will not see the Placement points (which are calculated in the background) for your group, but you will see each golfer's Reservation points. All requests are first prioritized according to the average number of Placement points for the group. Then, average Reservation points for the group are applied, and prioritized again. It is possible for a group with a higher average of Reservation points to have priority over another group, if their average of Placement points is lower.

But...this is mostly important only on Championship courses, where the Enhanced members have a big advantage in the Placement point category. For executive course play, all residents are treated the same as far as Placement points go, with the only difference being guests, which carry one point more than residents.

And, you must remember that Reservation points are a constantly moving target, as the system looks at the previous 7 days. As an example, if you submit a request on a Thursday to play the next week on Thursday, you will see the Reservation points assigned to each golfer in your group. But, those point values can, and likely will, change before the next week. It is not the point values shown when you make the request that count...it is the point values each golfer has when the request goes into the system. In this Thursday example, your request will go into the system at 12:01am on Monday morning. The points that each golfer has at that time are what count for your group. So, a golfer that had 2 points when you made the request on Thursday could easily have 4 points, or zero points, by Monday morning.

Sorry for the long winded response. Hopefully this helps explain a little about how the system works, and maybe help folks understand the reason behind not getting a tee time. For simplicity's sake, just think of it this way: If you mostly play Executive courses, don't even think about Placement points, unless your group has a guest. If so, understand your group will have a lower priority than groups made up entirely or residents. When playing Championship courses, know that groups made up of Enhanced members will always have priority over groups of non-Enhanced members.

Whew.

[mntlblok]

Originally Posted by NoMo50

There really is no need to go too deep into the woods when thinking about this. Again, the algorithm used by the system is very complex, but it does a really good job of keeping the assignment of tee times as fair as possible.

First off, the Placement points and Reservation points are not added together. They are considered separately, with Placement points being looked at first. Everyone has Placement points, but not everyone has Reservation points. When you make a request in the system, you will not see the Placement points (which are calculated in the background) for your group, but you will see each golfer's Reservation points. All requests are first prioritized according to the average number of Placement points for the group. Then, average Reservation points for the group are applied, and prioritized again. It is possible for a group with a higher average of Reservation points to have priority over another group, if their average of Placement points is lower.

But...this is mostly important only on Championship courses, where the Enhanced members have a big advantage in the Placement point category. For executive course play, all residents are treated the same as far as Placement points go, with the only difference being guests, which carry one point more than residents.

And, you must remember that Reservation points are a constantly moving target, as the system looks at the previous 7 days. As an example, if you submit a request on a Thursday to play the next week on Thursday, you will see the Reservation points assigned to each golfer in your group. But, those point values can, and likely will, change before the next week. It is not the point values shown when you make the request that count...it is the point values each golfer has when the request goes into the system. In this Thursday example, your request will go into the system at 12:01am on Monday morning. The points that each golfer has at that time are what count for your group. So, a golfer that had 2 points when you made the request on Thursday could easily have 4 points, or zero points, by Monday morning.

Sorry for the long winded response. Hopefully this helps explain a little about how the system works, and maybe help folks understand the reason behind not getting a tee time. For simplicity's sake, just think of it this way: If you mostly play Executive courses, don't even think about Placement points, unless your group has a guest. If so, understand your group will have a lower priority than groups made up entirely or residents. When playing Championship courses, know that groups made up of Enhanced members will always have priority over groups of non-Enhanced members.

Whew.

Most edifying. Thank you!

[Fenster]

This system is needlessly complicated. Most people don’t understand it. And you can’t blame everyone.
It should be simplified.

[Rainger99]

I THINK I have it figured out. Let me know if I am correct.

This is for executive courses with no cancelations by anyone.

The first thing that the computer does is to calculate each groups' placement points.

According to the system, residents have 6 placement points and guests have 7 placement points.

If you have four foursomes, the possible combinations are

4 residents
3 residents and 1 guest
2 residents and 2 guests
1 resident and 3 guests
4 guests (not sure if this is allowed)

The first group would have 24 placement points
The second group would have 25 placement points
The third group would have 26 placement points
The fourth group would have 27 placement points
The fifth group would have 28 placements.

The computer then ranks every groups' placement points.

Only after that is done, the computer then goes to reservation points and looks at them within each group.

When the computer looks at all of the requests, it takes all of the first group and fulfills their requests first; then to the second group; and so on.

For each group, the group with the fewest reservation points would be first on the list and the group with the most reservation points would be last on the list. However, the computer fulfills all of group one before going on to the next group.

If you are in the first group and no one played in the last seven days, the group would have 0 points but if everyone played seven times in the last seven days, the group would have 28 points. I think that group with 28 points would have their request fulfilled before going to the second group and looking at their reservation points. So you could have the possibility of 4 people in the second group not having played once in the last week (so 0 reservation points) but their request would be fulfilled after people in group one who had played each day in the past week.

The computer would then go to groups 3, 4, and 5, whereby all of the requests in each group would be fulfilled ahead of lower groups.

[tophcfa]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

I THINK I have it figured out. Let me know if I am correct.

This is for executive courses with no cancelations by anyone.

The first thing that the computer does is to calculate each groups' placement points.

According to the system, residents have 6 placement points and guests have 7 placement points.

If you have four foursomes, the possible combinations are

4 residents
3 residents and 1 guest
2 residents and 2 guests
1 resident and 3 guests
4 guests (not sure if this is allowed)

The first group would have 24 placement points
The second group would have 25 placement points
The third group would have 26 placement points
The fourth group would have 27 placement points
The fifth group would have 28 placements.

The computer then ranks every groups' placement points.

Only after that is done, the computer then goes to reservation points and looks at them within each group.

When the computer looks at all of the requests, it takes all of the first group and fulfills their requests first; then to the second group; and so on.

For each group, the group with the fewest reservation points would be first on the list and the group with the most reservation points would be last on the list. However, the computer fulfills all of group one before going on to the next group.

If you are in the first group and no one played in the last seven days, the group would have 0 points but if everyone played seven times in the last seven days, the group would have 28 points. I think that group with 28 points would have their request fulfilled before going to the second group and looking at their reservation points. So you could have the possibility of 4 people in the second group not having played once in the last week (so 0 reservation points) but their request would be fulfilled after people in group one who had played each day in the past week.

The computer would then go to groups 3, 4, and 5, whereby all of the requests in each group would be fulfilled ahead of lower groups.

Good explanation. One thing that you didn’t go over is what happens when I put in for a twosome (my wife and I) who are both residents. I assume we are paired, by the system, with another twosome of residents and put in the first group with the lowest placement points of 24? But you know what they say about assuming. I would be interested in knowing how that works if anyone knows.

[Rainger99]

Originally Posted by tophcfa

Good explanation. One thing that you didn’t go over is what happens when I put in for a twosome (my wife and I) who are both residents. I assume we are paired, by the system, with another twosome of residents and put in the first group with the lowest placement points of 24? But you know what they say about assuming. I would be interested in knowing how that works if anyone knows.

I do not know but I will try to find out.

I would think that each request would be calculated separately whether it is a foursome, threesome, twosome, or single. If you and your wife have 0 points, it would be unfair to put you with another twosome with 14 points as you would be penalized for the other players’ points.

If I were designing the system, I would design it so that separate groups are assigned to separate groups with the same point total. For example, if you or your wife had 0 points, it should put you with another twosome with 0 points or with two singles with 0 points.

The question is does it take all foursomes first, then all threesomes, then all twosomes, and finally singles.

It should take all groups and put them in order of points.

For example, It should take a threesome with 0 points and put them with a single with 0 points before going to a foursome with 1 point.