[John Mayes]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

When you say, "maintenance staffs that are employees of TV", I assume you mean "employees of the Developer/golf course owner" ?

I was told by numerous sources, that all the Championship courses were out-sourced for maintenance. I'd be curious to know which courses are maintained by actual employees of the Developer.

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

[DAVIDW5084]

I agree with your points on centralized management of the executive courses. The same can be said for the championship courses which could be under the same management but I believe they are completely separated free m each other. The question is how to get it done.

[Two Bills]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Husband plays four times a week, 18 holes, doesn't come home complaining. He is 83. Most people know that the golf here is different than what we have left.......and so are we, mostly. This is a hugely successful development here, golf and all. If it ain't broke, why fix it???

Probably over successful as a development, but unfortunately conditions and maintenance, has not kept up with the demand and extra wear and tear on existing golf courses.
My wife and I have not golfed for several years now, but old friends in TV are unanimous in saying how bad some of the Championship courses are, and that far too many Execs are dire.
Something is definitely broken, and needs fixing, and even the largest 'Rose Tinted' spectacles need a clean now and again!
What is new, and unheard of, is even some of the diehards, who would attack any detrimental post or poster on any subject concerning The Villages on TOTV, are voicing dissatisfaction with course conditions.
There is definitely something wrong.

[John Mayes]

Originally Posted by John Mayes

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

I need to correct my claim about TDS. I just looked on Golf The Villages and it says that maintenance is handled by Down To Earth.

[village dreamer]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

im not sure who is higher,rick craig or mitch leininger dir of golf 352 674 1885. give them hell.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by John Mayes

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

TDS isn't maintained by the Developer, based on what 2 different employees told me, in the last 2 weeks. According to what I was told, the "contractor" who maintained TDS, GV & Lopez has been moved down "south" to help with construction and/or grow in. The contractor that maintains Palmer & others, has taken over GV, TDS & LL.

The information flow in TV isn't always credible, but the people who told me this, *should* know the facts.

[Just read your correction. That follows what I've been told. Thanks for posting it]

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by village dreamer

im not sure who is higher,rick craig or mitch leininger dir of golf 352 674 1885. give them hell.

I believe the Rickey Craig is #1 with the Championship courses and Leininger is #1 with Executive courses.

I'd love to go to work for the Villages golf operation and would do it for much less than 1/2 what I was getting paid, when I had to make a living. That said, I doubt they'd want me. I'm much too opinionated and not one to "toe the company line", when things are amiss.

If I ever hear that TV really wants to make a change in the way they manage and operate their golf courses. I'll be first in line at the job window.

[JGVillages]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

I have been here for18+ years. In my opinion the Director of Golf Course Operations 18 years ago and developed the Tee Time System, which is an excellent system. Unfortunately his educational expertise was not related to golf, and wasn’t the person to properly handle golf course future development and maintenance. In addition The Villages courses have been constructed by one contractor that completed the projects within the budget the Developer allowed, which in many areas were below USGA standards, thus contributing to ongoing maintenance issues. Some of the north’s Championship course renovations, ie: Lopez greens not originally built to USGA Spec’s, revealed the less expensive construction. For me I believe The Developer has done a spectacular job with the ammenities and their quality offered to the residents. The exception seems to be in the quality of Villages Golf Courses, which in my belief was initiallyThe Developer’s lack of GOLF expertise to hire the contractors and employees necessary to job they believed would happen, thus contributing to the ongoing maintenance issues.

[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by Hape2Bhr

The course I belonged to up north rolled greens at least four times a week. They were quite fast. The Super would post the putting green speed daily prior to tournaments; always above 11, and usually higher.

`

Rolled greens. People here are lucky to have greens which consist of having grass on more than 50% on the surface area and mowed(exec courses)

[Jim1mack]

Last Wednesday I golfed Destin to fort Walton at Bonifay. I was a fourth on my reservation and the other three were together on another reservation. As such I could use my cart and they could use the two carts they came in. That’s the rule btw.

With three carts one must drive in the rough and use the 90 degree rule to cross the fairway. To my surprise, the other two carts also drove the rough and used the 90 degree rule or walked from the rough to their ball if it was near. It was not a 90 degree rule day.

These three as well as I sanded or replaced divots and fixed their ball marks. We also all fixed any other ball marks we found.

That’s how it should be done. All greens were in great shape btw.

[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by John Mayes

Not all championship courses are sourced to outside maintenance crews. Two or possibly three courses are maintained by maintenance staffs that are employees of TV’s….not the district. SO is one course maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

No matter what there are two different entities, the developer(AKA Morss family) and the Districts. Each needs to figure out the best way to solve this problem. Will give the developer credit, as most of their courses are in good shape except 1 or 2. Also execs in the north end are in good shape and still are very busy.

[John Mayes]

Originally Posted by Jim1mack

Last Wednesday I golfed Destin to fort Walton at Bonifay. I was a fourth on my reservation and the other three were together on another reservation. As such I could use my cart and they could use the two carts they came in. That’s the rule btw.

With three carts one must drive in the rough and use the 90 degree rule to cross the fairway. To my surprise, the other two carts also drove the rough and used the 90 degree rule or walked from the rough to their ball if it was near. It was not a 90 degree rule day.

These three as well as I sanded or replaced divots and fixed their ball marks. We also all fixed any other ball marks we found.

That’s how it should be done. All greens were in great shape btw.

General rule is to follow 90° all the time regardless of the number of carts. One should always avoid driving down the middle of the fairway.

[Erider]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I believe the Rickey Craig is #1 with the Championship courses and Leininger is #1 with Executive courses.

I'd love to go to work for the Villages golf operation and would do it for much less than 1/2 what I was getting paid, when I had to make a living. That said, I doubt they'd want me. I'm much too opinionated and not one to "toe the company line", when things are amiss.

If I ever hear that TV really wants to make a change in the way they manage and operate their golf courses. I'll be first in line at the job window.

Brian, first thanks for all your comments, it's obvious that you know what you are talking about about.

It appears to be a problem of the blind leading the blind. People without necessary turf management expertise are directing maintenance performed by glorified lawn care companies.

I believe that it would be of great benefit for a person with your resume to have a chat with the two gentleman named in this thread. I am a retired PGA professional with over 30 years in the business. Perhaps I could send them an email introducing them to you and suggesting a meeting. DM me your contact info if you'd like to try this.

[Oneiric]

Originally Posted by MrChip72

The developer should follow in a common theme they go by and create their own golf maintenance company. They could take advantage of the huge economies of scale involved in owning specialized equipment that might only be used once a month on each course.

I honestly don't know how some of the smaller muni courses up north can maintain fairly good conditions just using a small team of seasonal golf maintenance workers and limited equipment.

If The Villages attitude is "we just sell houses", and stands by while the quality of their main asset falls dramatically, why should they change if they are building and selling new houses as fast as possible?
They have the money to build a new high school better than a lot of small colleges. Rather than worry about a perfect physical plant to attract better workers, most parents would be really interested in the advanced placement programs and how many students apply to the very best colleges.

[wamley]

Your answer is correct, but it appears noboby keeps the golf courses in good shape. It's pitiful