[JGVillages]

Played Mallory today and the course in general was good. The reason for this post is to illustrate the continuing issue with too much sand at the lips of traps. Having had a considerable amount of rain yesterday evening a number of the traps washed out at the top. This will happen. The problem (that the attached picture illustrates) is where the actual base of the trap exists. This wash out shows the actual base of the trap that was easily 18 - 20" below the lip. When they repair this by pushing the sand back up to the lip there will be sand at the lip and extending into the trap a few feet that will be 18"+ deep. Any shot that hits in this area will if lucky be a "fried egg", but most likely disappear. Basically impossible to even stand in this area as your feet will sink like in quicksand.

Photo loaded sideways so click on it to see larger rotated version.

[fred53]

It would be nice if you actually posted the issue you have as you don't really make a point...if it's that the sand traps wash out...yes they do...if it's you get a buried lie toward the deeper lips of the sand trap....yes you do...it's the nature of their design and upkeep...happens all over the world...yes it does...the solution of course is to not hit it into the trap at all...it's a hazard and before the advent of the sand wedge(thank you Gene Sarazen)it was difficult at best to extricate yourself from the hazard...

So in conclusion...stop mentioning the problem and start working on your sand game for one and being able to hit it away from them for two....

[mickey100]

Originally Posted by JGVillages

Played Mallory today and the course in general was good. The reason for this post is to illustrate the continuing issue with too much sand at the lips of traps. Having had a considerable amount of rain yesterday evening a number of the traps washed out at the top. This will happen. The problem (that the attached picture illustrates) is where the actual base of the trap exists. This wash out shows the actual base of the trap that was easily 18 - 20" below the lip. When they repair this by pushing the sand back up to the lip there will be sand at the lip and extending into the trap a few feet that will be 18"+ deep. Any shot that hits in this area will if lucky be a "fried egg", but most likely disappear. Basically impossible to even stand in this area as your feet will sink like in quicksand.

Photo loaded sideways so click on it to see larger rotated version.

I agree. The sand traps in the villages are poorly maintained. A well maintained trap is designed to have a uniform depth of sand and gives the golfer a fair lie. Sand traps that are poorly maintained push the sand all the way up the sides, resulting in fried egg lies and slowing play. And the wet conditions only exacerbate the problem, as you described. I suppose that's the problem with having golf course maintenance farmed out to a secondary company instead of having an on-site greenskeeper. There have been many comments on this before and unfortunately things just don't change. I suggest you call the head of golf operations and talk to a real person and voice your concerns. Maybe if they hear it from enough people they will do something.

[dbussone]

I believe part of the problem relates to the fact that a significant number of our golfers don't have a clue regarding their responsibility for the care of a bunker. Even worse, there are too many who don't care for them at all, and I have seen both.

[JGVillages]

Originally Posted by fred53

It would be nice if you actually posted the issue you have as you don't really make a point...if it's that the sand traps wash out...yes they do...if it's you get a buried lie toward the deeper lips of the sand trap....yes you do...it's the nature of their design and upkeep...happens all over the world...yes it does...the solution of course is to not hit it into the trap at all...it's a hazard and before the advent of the sand wedge(thank you Gene Sarazen)it was difficult at best to extricate yourself from the hazard...

So in conclusion...stop mentioning the problem and start working on your sand game for one and being able to hit it away from them for two....

The "point" is that sand traps have a consistent "base". These do not.

[tomwed]

If you don't like where the ball is, move it. You're not playing in The Open.

[mickey100]

Originally Posted by tomwed

If you don't like where the ball is, move it. You're not playing in The Open.

Unfortunately, that would be contrary to the rules of golf. Try doing that on men's day and you'll be penalized. And its pretty tough to drop into fluffy sand without getting a completely plugged lie!

[tomwed]

Originally Posted by mickey100

Unfortunately, that would be contrary to the rules of golf. Try doing that on men's day and you'll be penalized. And its pretty tough to drop into fluffy sand without getting a completely plugged lie!

Then lift, clean and place.

On men's day, at least on the exec courses that's what you do, I think. If your best lie with four guys hitting is a buried lie, you're not going to win anyway. I've played that tournament almost 100 times and a buried lie was never the best option.

So much in village golf is arbitrary like where the pins are tucked or the ties are placed. In The Open every option is discussed.

If you do play by all 28 rules, when worse comes to worse, you call it unplayable, take the penalty stroke, drop and move on. You'll recover, if you're any good.

[JGVillages]

Originally Posted by tomwed

If you don't like where the ball is, move it. You're not playing in The Open.

I play in a group of 8-16 players 2-3 times a week. We do play games involving betting no matter how small the $$$ may be. To protect the integrity of the game each player or group cannot arbitrarily make their own rules as you go along. If the players you play with don't mind your bending the rules to suit your game then please do so. The issue here is the construction and maintenance of the "base" of our sand traps. If individuals or groups want to create a local rule to aleviate the problem of poor construction and maintenance then make that adjustment, but don't put your head in the sand (sorry for the pun) and not admit that a problem exists that could be corrected.

[waynet]

the traps are built wrong. Many of them are way too deep and far too big. We are senior golfers, try raking the bunker on the side of 9th green on Caroline. You can only hope you get it out the first time because raking that thing could lead to a heart attack. No need for large deep sand traps. And the way they are maintained is simply stupid.

[JoMar]

Played Glenview last Thursday, played Redfish this morning, surveyed several traps (unintentionally) and had no ball plug. The traps here are preferable to the traps on the public courses I played in Pa and a couple of the true CC's I played. Also, if the traps are becoming too difficult for us to manage, maybe we should be playing courses that are a bit easier as some of the Exec courses have traps that are easily exited. I know the ego's get in the way, like playing from the blue tees and maybe hit a 200 yard drive.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by mickey100

I agree. The sand traps in the villages are poorly maintained. A well maintained trap is designed to have a uniform depth of sand and gives the golfer a fair lie. Sand traps that are poorly maintained push the sand all the way up the sides, resulting in fried egg lies and slowing play. And the wet conditions only exacerbate the problem, as you described. I suppose that's the problem with having golf course maintenance farmed out to a secondary company instead of having an on-site greenskeeper. There have been many comments on this before and unfortunately things just don't change. I suggest you call the head of golf operations and talk to a real person and voice your concerns. Maybe if they hear it from enough people they will do something.

Where in the rules of the game does it say that the player is entitled to a "fair lie"? Plugged lies happen all the time. I see them on the PGA tour where course conditions are as good as they can be. Unfair lies happens all the time everywhere. Sometimes you end up in a divot. Even when divots are filled, sometimes you might end up in a sand filled divot.

There is nothing fair about the game of golf. The two basic rules are, play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. When it is impossible to do either of those consult the rule book to know how to proceed.

One of the greatest things about the great game of golf is that you get to play all kinds of different golf courses and all kinds of different conditions. Years ago at Oakmont, they raked the bunkers with special tools that left 2" deep ridges. Pine Valley in Clementon, NJ does not rake bunkers at all and does not provide rakes for the players to rake them. I'd love to see some of the people on this forum play St Andrews in the middle of the summer. It's like playing on cement. Some of you would be whining about some of the world's greatest golf courses.

The game was invented on cow pastures. Conditions were deplorable compared to what we have today. Even as late as the 1960s US Open courses sometimes would be in deplorable conditions. We are all spoiled by what we have today. I think that it would better for all of us to go back to the origins of the game.

[TheVillageChicken]

Looks like the USGA agrees with the OP, but thanks anyway to the experts on the forum.

[tomwed]

Most golfers don't know the rules. Most golfers try to hit the ball where it lies even though they have options. The next time anyone is in a money game ask everyone what the rules are for an Unplayable Lie in a Bunker and see if they even know.


Option 1 – Take a drop of no more than 2 club lengths no closer to the hole, but
still in the bunker incurring a 1 shot penalty [I find it hard to believe that a dropped ball from shoulder length will bury itself.]
Option 2 – Replay the shot from the original position incurring a stroke and
distance penalty [more often then not, this is the best option]
Option 3 – Go back as far as you like in the bunker and drop keeping that spot
where your ball laid between you and the hole. This incurs a 1 shot penalty

[waynet]

there are times when a ball plugs in a bunker. But plugged lies are a rarity,they do not happen all the time or even sometimes in proper maintained bunkers,that's why pros get so mad. I've kept track lately of plugged balls for my group of 32 golfers. Over the last month the average is 6 per round. That's an awful lot. No need for it. Don't need rules,don't need preferred lies,don't need easier golf courses. What we do need are better maintained sand traps period.