I think everyone should work in a Federal Government agency for a period of time in their lives,
then they might have a quite different outlook on government run healthcare when they see the inefficiency and waste!

Not realy necessary, but made to show that certain subjects cannot be adressed easily, and without huge political and social repercussions.

It's NEVER going to happen in our lifetime or our children's lifetime or their children's lifetime! Relax it's all just a talking point to get elected.

How are you going to pay for this? Homina Homina - YouTube

Relax! it's a Big Zero!

I did and it was mind blowing how money was pointlessly peed away for nothing and many employees diddled away their time, counting the days until they could retire.

I agree. I remember one agency I visited where they reviewed claims for welfare, and they actually had a motto, "WHEN IN DOUBT, SHELL IT OUT". This was no joke. The employees were instructed that, if a welfare applicant could not prove their eligibilty, the employee was required to give them the welfare benefit. After all, it is only taxpayer money, and we have plenty of it to give away. Many applicants knew this and were coached to pretend to not speak English.

Another U. S. Army office I inspected, had hundreds of new Dell desktop computers and printers stacked up in the hallways, and another hundred or so Dell laptops stored in a stock room. When I asked about these, I was told that it was a good way to spend their excess budget money at the end of the year, so they could get the same funding or more next year. This wasteful spending happens almost every year in many Federal Government offices.

I have no doubt that a Government health care system would be operated the same way.

In order to better deal with healthcare,
maybe the first step would be to get our Federal Government in sound fiscal shape!
In my opinion, growing an inefficient and wasteful government is not the answer.

If I recall correctly the government is in charge of VA hospitals. How has that been working for Vetrans?

If the government had to operate like a corporation with profit/loss accountabilities then maybe it could work. Instead it operates like a drunken sailor on leave and has no accountability on where the money goes. Just saying "government run" anything is enough to make me never want to see the idea at all.

Canada’s program began in the sixties. I don’t know if you can compare it to 2019. It has universal healthcare but I wouldn’t call it a socialist country. Taxes are higher... in a country with few people... if you have low-income and under 65, it is a good basic system. Otherwise additional insurance is required. The GST, goods and services tax, lowered prices to a point but it affects low income workers the most. Gas had always been high, like Europe, but less, even though there are so many resources in Alberta. Meds are much cheaper, even half what we pay. Many doctors left as they put a cap on earnings. Many RNs lost their jobs to less qualified help due I think to try and keep some doctors wages, and other expenses. Still, most like it. It’s not perfect. Unlike here 80% of the doctors are primary care GPs. Here, I believe most have specialized (for bigger bucks?) and 80% are specialists who only look at one part of the body. I won’t comment on pharmaceutical companies here, IMHO, a basic healthcare plus the option of purchasing insurance for other than basic needs seems good. Socialized anything is a risk iMHO and needs to be watched carefully. Look at socialization around the world, it’s a sad story and the reason Canada decentralized government in many areas. Yet, now with Trudeau back in, there is fear in many Canadians. Big government means less freedom and it is clearly seen in Canada’s healthcare and in other countries.

I remember reading about Canada having one expensive diagnostic equipment, the only one in Canada, whereas most hospitals of size in the USA had them years before. Canada is a small country population wise 1/10th of the USA.

The most valuable job attribute all elected federal and domestic positions enjoy?.....NO ACCOUNTABILITY!

I met a woman who was renting here from Canada a few years back. Her husband developed a medical emergency and was hospitalized for much of their time here. She raved about the hospital and care. Said our hospital (get ready for it) was like a luxuary hotel. I'd not yet been in it so was expecting....oh.I.don't.know....something like from a movie?!!! Also...just today I heard commentary from a radio program where the guest spoke of the what the cost here would be for UHC and it's ridiculous. Someone else in this thread also said it...it would be 2 Trillion dollars and yes...."they" would expect the wealthy and corporations to foot the bill. Really???? I also agree not to let the government have the lead on this as it would become something of a nightmare. IF you are young and productive it "might" work but if you are old and sick....not so much.

If it happens prepare to wait, especially if you have cancer. NHS Key Statistics: England, October 2019 - Commons Library briefing - UK Parliament

Why do we try to compare ourselves with other countries. How many of them have over 20 million undocumented individuals "living in the shadows" and not paying taxes?
I visited Cuba last year. Our guide was boasting about their free health care. Considering we were told to bring Kleenex with us because many Cuban bathrooms don't have toilet paper I didn't think that they had much to boast about. If a Cuban owns a car, it's because he had relatives in the US send him enough money to buy it. There once beautiful neighborhoods are now overgrown and in disrepair. But, they don't have to pay for health care. It's amazing Americans aren't trying to relocate there.
"

Basically, you lay the blame for whatever regarding healthcare. With a blanket, and believe me, taxes are not the answers, even if your statement was true.

With very little research, I offer the following and it is easy to research, but more on that later
---------------------
"Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[2][3][4][5] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[6][7][8][9] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[10] Sanctuary cities—which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally—have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[11][12] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[13][14][11]"
--------------------------https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States


That responds to your blanket blaming of immigrants, but I agree that our immigration needs work, but talking is not something we do any longer

Healthcare can be resolved, but we keep being promised alternatives but never see them.. We HAD a plan that nobody will disagree needed work, and instead of resolving the issue, we are striving to dismay it, and it seems resolvable if we really cared.

I was shocked in reading the thread on "Medicare part D" and wonder why we, the voters don't demand answers. Seems to me that the situation described there is resolvable by elected officials of any party, and hopefully by both.

We talk in such generalities, demand no consequences for those responsible for making the laws. We don't even demand they talk.

I suggest it is all fixable, IF anyone wants to.

I was vocal and loud in my opposition to Obamacare, but I naively believed those who said it would be adjusted, etc and they were not telling the truth.

How about going after the $6 billion (yes B) in fraud that occurs in the medicare/Medicaid systems. Go after that and then look at fixing the med system in this country. Punish the perpetrators to the max and increase the penalties to reduce/eliminate the fraud. You can hire more people to audit and put people to work.

So if I understand this claim, with which I don’t agree, we are lucky to have paid out $18,500,000,000. in reported medical care for illegals in 2017 alone not to mention the additional housing, food, schooling, etc. paid for by the American taxpayer. (Per Forbes...). Yet, many American citizens long for such “free” services.

Numbers can be skewed to make it look like this is a great deal. It’s not, we need American citizens living within the laws for everyone and not a subset of standards for some people living off hard working Americans.

Yeah, would it not be great if all American citizens lived within the laws, and everyone lived up to the same standard ?

I digress...you may have a point, but guess what.....our "leaders will not iscuss it. Refuse to. Lots of issues surrounding immigration and health care, LOTS, but we only aim one way.

Get used to it.....I mean the lack of any discussion, the need for something constructive that has unintended consequences. Sometimes, I marvel at the complete lack of caring in this country.

Again, you may have good points, but immigration is NOT the cause of our very serious healthcare problem.

But, we certainly agree that EVERY BODY should live up to the same standards and abide by the law.

Agreed, the conversation has been a non-starter for too long. There is constant talk of decreasing Medicare coverage to help with the shortfall but $18 and a half billion to $20 billion a year would go along way toward shoring it up.

How long will the American people tolerate lack of action, who knows?

No it does not.... "research shows"? whose "research"? And in your very words " With very little research, I offer the following"
That crap is spewed from Wikipedia...where is your proof in links? Let me warn you that for every link you "prove" those wikipedia points, I can post just as many links to disprove.

This might be zapped for being off topic, but FWIW: We did a cruise that visited Havana before those trips were stopped. I have been to many poor Caribbean islands but Cuba was the most depressing place I have ever visited. Very sad.

k.

IMO, Well for one malpractice insurance, USA full of ambulance chasing lawyers. USA invaded by foreign doctors scamming the system with test after test after test to run up the bill, you’re trumped up health problems require several medications which another way scam the system. They stay few years then move back to India live like kings or escape fraud.

. Total socialist healthcare with a country with so many not paying taxes and those in congress saying free this, free that and you don’t even need to work shouldn’t make sense to anyone. Kids in colleges promoting such things should go live in their idealized political country and survive for one year there, then talk. That is not to say there is not a system that would work here.

Since on this thread there is comparison of other countries then read this.

This was just sent to me...probably easy to confirm:

Venezuela Time Line

1992 it became 3rd riches country in hemisphere (think of that a minute)
1997 It because 2nd largest purchaser of F-150
2001 Voted for Socialist President (income inequality)
2004 Private HEALTHCARE is completely socialized
2007 All private education becomes “free”
2009 All private ownership of hand guns banned
2012 Bernie Sanders praises their “American Dream”
2014 Opposition leaders are imprisoned
2016 Food / healthcare shortages become widespread
2017 CONSTITUTION and elections are suspended
2019 Unarmed citizens are massacred by their own country

It took only one generation of progressive leadership to plunge this country into Civil War.

So you found a "study" that claims how wonderful things are with border crashers. Here's another.

New FAIR Study: Illegal Immigration Costs $116 billion Annually
September 27, 2017

|

IRLI Staff

Brunt of Costs Fall on State and Local Taxpayers



(Washington, D.C.) - Illegal immigration to the U.S. costs federal, state and local taxpayers a staggering net cost of $116 billion a year - an increase of some $16 billion compared to previous estimates - according to a new study released by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). The study is the most comprehensive to date on the cost to federal, state and local taxpayers of the nation's 12.5 million illegal immigrants and their 4.2 million citizen children.



Costs Soar



The report, “The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers,” examines the cost of illegal immigration through a detailed analysis of federal, state and local programs that are available to the nation’s illegal immigrant population, their U.S.-born children, or accessed via fraud. The study tallies the impact on education, medical, justice/enforcement, welfare and other government programs. The report notes that the $116 billion cost of illegal immigration falls on state and local taxpayers disproportionately – by a ratio of roughly 2 to 1 – with state and local expenditures totaling $88.9 billion and Federal expenditures totaling $45.8 billion, with only approximately $19 billion recouped in taxes.



Taxes Paid Inadequate



The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.



All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid.



On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) third.



At the state and local level, education ($44.4 billion) was by far the largest expense, followed by general public services ($18.5 billion) and medical ($12.1 billion).



The study also includes cost and tax revenue estimates per state. The top three states based on total cost to state taxpayers for illegal immigrants and their children: California ($23 billion); Texas ($10.9 billion), and New York ($7.5 billion).

I do not believe that any countries that have free health care extend coverage to non citizens. They don't have the economic stress we have from porous borders.

Yes, you can confirm, an maybe or should have before posting this.

Venezuela refused to admit they had problem when oil income was reduced. Thy welcomed an authoritarian leader who eventually became butal, and that in concert with not acknowledging the economics at play.

I don't think a Bernie Snders jab in the middle makes this a serious anthology.

I thought I was clear that my lesson was ONLY because of your referring to immigration as the problem with heath care.

If blaming these folks makes you feel good, go for it.

But, if you want to discuss healthcare, you are on a wrong street.

Talk to those who are elected as to why, despite loud protestation, they ignore the problem of healthcare.

This does not mean I favor one form or another....it simply means when our leaders begin to discuss it, we are moving in the right direction on healthcare.

Blaming minorities for everything is just stupid, as we keep jailing those who do not fit the assigned slot

This isn’t blaming minorities for everything so that flag doesn’t need to be waved. This is about all of the illegal, non citizens living in the pockets of American citizens.

Sloooooowly I turn, step by step.

Why does all of this noise have to be in extremes?

A manageable, doable start is to resuscitate the ACA before it is too late. (Yeah. I know. I am repeating myself. I said that a buzillion posts earlier in this thread.)

They are stealthily coming after the protection of pre-existing conditions, the best part of the ACA. The cruelty of taking that protection away makes my skin crawl.

Even though many here are ensconced in Medicare, due to turning 65, surely there must be concern for younger family members and friends — and (in my dreams) concern for the overall health of the nation, both literally and figuratively.

Real solutions are there, but fixing healthcare has to be done in steps. Also, all the players have to be at the table, including insurance companies and corporations that make health insurance available to employees.

What happened to critical thinking skills — independent thinking, analytical thinking, realistic solution-seeking thinking?

Pogo was right.

(I gotta stop looking at this thread and make some phone calls to tell the people who could actually do something sensible what to do. uh huh)

How many of these systems are financially solvent. I hear many stories of them going broke. They are not able to raise enough money through taxes to keep them going. The French system has been on the verge of collapse. I have friends in The UK that defend their system, and then complain that the government is not putting enough money into it. And of course, they always have the same mantra. "Tax the rich more".

The problem with trying to do this in The US is that it can't be paid for if we taxed the top 5% at 100%.

And even if we did, can we trust to government to run a cost efficient system that provides good service? What other government agencies can you think of that are cost efficient and well run?

To all retirees not in favor of socialized health care we should give up our Medicare and pay for our fair share of health care on the open market like non retirees do. This way we can insure better and freer choices while preserving democracy. Or are we talking about just the other guys not on Medicare?

Discussion seems to have been replaced by "blaming" and disregarding anyone else in this country except US and those exactly like US.

ACA was/is not perfect......I was very opposed, BUT I figured that leaders would discuss it openly and make adjustments.

Obvious it was simply destroyed (openly saving the death knell for an election cycle...look it up...its true), and we are told it will be replaced. BY WHAT ?

Nobody talks anymore except about themselves, and of course WHO is to blame, and it is never US who allow this to go on.

Reminder of existing US socialism: fire dept, police dept, medicare, social security, to name a few.

...

Wondering where the huge payouts farmers receivd caused by a trade war fits. It dwarfs the amount that both parties agreed to give to automakers to save that industry.

It is a word that is used simply for politics and the true meaning is long gone.

When we’re a socialist country we’ll have universal health care. Be careful what you wish for my friends, be careful.

Yes, everything has a price, of this you can be sure!

The post did not appear when quoted.....hence

"Reminder of existing US socialism: fire dept, police dept, medicare, social security, to name a few."

My response:

Not really.
All paid for by most of us.

I fear much of what you folks fear.

My problem is how the word "socialist" is thrown around with absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.

"A Socialist country is a country where the government or the public as a whole has control over the economy. In a socialist country, the producing and dispersing of goods is owned by the government. Socialism is placed in between capitalism and communism."

Is bailing out our banks "socialism"....is the paying of farmers "socialism"....having PUBLIC services paid with taxes..is that "socialism"

YOU are being fed a lot of garbage....you certainly can object to "socialism"...that is your right......CANADA.....Socialism in Canada has a long history and is, along with conservatism and liberalism, a political force in Canada. Those rotten Canadians.

Our country has a constitution, and laws that basically will not allow a move so far as to deem it socialism.

Please know the definition before throwing things around that you do not even understand. Attacks on our constitution and laws are closer to "socialism" than anything you mention.

A health plan partially subsidized might work, but if you are going to be told that it is extreme, then you just do not understand.

We have two bodies of congress that are supposed to talk to each other......we also have lobby groups that spend more money in lobbying than you can even imagine. Gun laws...bill passed, not discussed ...still awaiting any talk.

Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas.

Would it not be nice to have those folks elected to talk to each other and work out compromises ? BUT, we are always talking in such generalities..we label folks in such a general way blacks, whites etc without even knowing much about any of it...then we blame the other side for doing it. AN IDEA......lets try and discuss ISSUES without the labels and accusations.....it USED to work.

:oops:

"Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas."

"E PLURIBUS UNUM" actually means "one from many", or "out of many, one",
not "one of many". Picky I know but.....................a difference in meaning.

Actually I am smart enough to understand. The fact I don't agree does not mean I don't understand. We have subsidized health insurance. It is called ACA or Obamacare.