[lovsthosebigdogs]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Doctors don't make money on prescriptions. No Doctor I have ever visited see pharmaceutical sales people and make patients wait.

We see our doctors twice a year and don't feel ill. They evaluate our wellness. A lot of illnesses have no apparent symptoms; Cancer, thyroid overactivity or underactivity, high cholesterol, high blood pressure.

Because people take medication doesn't mean they are sick or feel ill, many medications keep them well.

My doctor discusses diet and exercise regularly. He is also interested in our level of happiness or unhappiness.

The fact that seniors take medications often mean they are taking care of themselves and living healthily.

Overweight and or plaque in arteries is not the only cause of hypertension. Eating too much fat is not the only cause of high cholesterol. Proper diet will not cure hyper or hypothyroidism or prevent cancer.

Once again well written and the voice of reason. Thank you, Gracie.
I hope those of you who look down on others who need meds to continue to feel well will realize that it's not always in a person's control and not always a "punishment" linked to poor diet and lack of ecercise. I have a cholesterol level in the low 100s, bp is 110/70, I am around 110 lbs before pizza (yes, I do eat it sometimes!) and I take meds regularly. It helps me have a better life and I am glad for medical science. I suppose I could be sanctimonious and suffer without, but I'd rather just be happy. I think you CAN take meds and be healthy. One doesn't exclude the other.

[KayakerNC]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I don't think either of these articles made your point.

[billethkid]

some medications are referred to as "maintenance medications".
Taking a cholesterol med to keep the numbers right or better. The alternative, do no maintenance/preventative meds and wait for a potential catastrophic event?

It would be nice to be able to see a breakout of the data describing differing categories of meds i.e long term maintenance-no medical event, maintenance-post medical event both short term and long term, temporary medication, meds for peace of mind (or something like that...not really sick or needed), et al.

It may not change the overall health outlook but would provide an improved understanding of the often described "health" of the patient.

Another factor to consider, for some, is the fact that the resident is covered by some sort of insurance private or medicare or other. Allowing more frequent visits of a non critical or just in case type visit resulting in a just in case type Rx (difficult to really define or apply!!!).

And if it would be possible to see data that would do some breakdown like the above but by income levels. I do not think there would be any doubt the lower the income the less doctor visits and less medication use would follow. In the lower income categories there would no doubt be those who should be on meds but cannot afford them and there would also be those who do not need any meds and because they cannot afford to go to the doctor in the first place.....are better off than a counterpart in a higher income.

Just a lot of different ways, as usual, to look at data...to make a case or not.

btk

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by pooh

You must remember that some people on meds arrived here on those meds and some medications should not stopped without review of the prescribing physician. Some drugs contraindicate certain foods being ingested.
Can better diet make people healthy? Maybe....maybe not. Again I will state that some bodies will not tolerate some foods, foods that might need to be ingested to help a body get needed And necessary nutrients.

Learning to eat foods that are nutritious is something we all might benefit from, but no matter what you say or I say, we all live in a manner we've learned, adjusted to. Some recognize they need to do something to make life better for them....for some it's weight loss, for some, it's exercise, for others, it's diet. In order to do anything, people need to WANT to do something. If they decide to forgo what some consider the road to good health, well, they must deal with the consequences of their decision. Health care is there to help people in need, be they suffering from obesity, COPD, heart or vascular disease, a broken leg or bacterial infection. Physicians take an oath to provide care to all who come to them. They aren't necessarily trained in advanced nutrition. They can make recommendations, but it is up to the patient to either take the advice or not.

Pooh is correct in that most medications cannot just be stopped cold turkey without consulting with their original physician. Years ago we lost a dear friend who was sick and tired of her (and her husbands and her son's thirty some pill bottles on the kitchen window, which they had to take each morning, etc......so she just stopped cold turkey. She told me she was going to do it. She hated swallowing the big horse pills and nothing was helping.......plus they kept passing the body around from specialist to specialist..............I told her she'd better check with her primary doc first..........

We were leaving on a trip out of town to help our daughter look for her wedding gown........our friend wanted us to measure for a table cloth while there.........which she was getting as a gift...........

Sad to say, when we returned.........said friend could no longer speak; had suffered a stroke......long story, but she had stopped taking a necessary pharmaceutical for her high blood pressure........she went downhill from there..........very sad. She was like a grandmother to all of us.

Myself and a lot of our friends are for NOT going on pharmaceuticals to begin with........as there are alternative remedies.......holistic remedies that all those little purple, red, blue and yellow pills cannot cure.

My own step father got very ill when he mixed up several of his prescriptions and either overdosed or missed a dose......he had them all together in a little baggy. We were on a trip to Maine with him and my mom when he got very very ill............scary. I saw her hand him the bag that morning. The blind leading the blind.

p.s. This was before we knew how confused she was and figured that they were both adults of 79 years young and didn't want to interfere.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew what was in that baggy and when he should take it. It all turned out fine in the end.....but he was lucky. My husband later "invented" for fun......a little pill bottle that would prevent such happenings.....never did anything with it, or when he did, they said the patent had already been granted, as I now recall.

[Bonnevie]

as a pharmacist I will give you my unscientific view of patients. By far the healthiest patients I see are the ones on the fewest medications. I have seen 90 year olds who look great and people who are 65 look like they have one foot in the grave. While genetics is certainly a factor, there is also attitude. Some patients want a medication prescribed for everything. Instead of making lifestyle changes they want a pill. A great example is Prevacid--thousands of people were put on that mediation for stomach upset when they may have been better off losing weight or modifying habits. The patients I consider healthier, avoid taking medications unless absolutely necessary. They realize they all come with side effects. As people age, the risk of side effects increase yet the doctors feel pressured to prescribe something or the patients don't feel like they got what they came for. Also, in the litigious atmosphere they are in, the doctors feel they have to prescribe meds to cya (cover their a#$%). I have more and more respect for the doctor my mother had in her senior years who asked her if she was going to take something if he prescribed it and if she said no, he didn't order it. Myself, when I look for a doctor, I look for one who doesn't prescribe a lot of meds.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by hope2soon

as a pharmacist I will give you my unscientific view of patients. By far the healthiest patients I see are the ones on the fewest medications. I have seen 90 year olds who look great and people who are 65 look like they have one foot in the grave. While genetics is certainly a factor, there is also attitude. Some patients want a medication prescribed for everything. Instead of making lifestyle changes they want a pill. A great example is Prevacid--thousands of people were put on that mediation for stomach upset when they may have been better off losing weight or modifying habits. The patients I consider healthier, avoid taking medications unless absolutely necessary. They realize they all come with side effects. As people age, the risk of side effects increase yet the doctors feel pressured to prescribe something or the patients don't feel like they got what they came for. Also, in the litigious atmosphere they are in, the doctors feel they have to prescribe meds to cya (cover their a#$%). I have more and more respect for the doctor my mother had in her senior years who asked her if she was going to take something if he prescribed it and if she said no, he didn't order it. Myself, when I look for a doctor, I look for one who doesn't prescribe a lot of meds.

EXCELLENT POST. From what we've seen, the side effects from the first prescription lead to the next specialist and the next "drug" and on and on.

We do have doctors up here who believe "less is more".........

Our pet peeve are the arthritis drugs with the side effects of lymphoma, cancers of the blood, tuberculosis, fungal diseases, and on and on.......
Good gracious..........morning stiffness is no fun; neither are swollen joints but the side effects mentioned above are definitely not welcomed.

I had quite a few friends and neighbors who never ever smoked a day in their life come down with fatal lung cancers........had chemo and radiation for a year or so........ultimately passed on,having lost all feeling in their hands and feet......nerve damage. Also blood clots from the "ports"; constant hospitilizations. Most recently I read that SOME arthritis drugs can lead to LUNG CANCER?????????????? That was a new wakeup call to me. I will continue to use "heat" and topical salves or rollon menthol and herbal type relief........but refuse to take anything orally.

Yes, we do remember that "pink stomach" pharmaceutical ad that we'd see at dinnertime.........I think it was the same drug?

Also, years ago (not too long) there was a cardiologist who falsely claimed on t.v. commercials that he also took a certain drug........you no longer see him on t.v. Obviously, he did it for the money.

They must think people are total idiots. We also have pharmacists as friends and neighbors and do appreciate your sound honest input.

I agree that a lot of folks are NOT happy until they get an RX.
There is no magic pill for today's ills.

My husband believes that the pharmaceutical companies "run" the networks..........that's all that's on the commercials during prime time news..........plus ABC evening news has turned into a health show with Diane interviewing Dr. Rich every day..........and then that theory flips and flops by the next month or so............

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by hope2soon

as a pharmacist I will give you my unscientific view of patients. By far the healthiest patients I see are the ones on the fewest medications. I have seen 90 year olds who look great and people who are 65 look like they have one foot in the grave. While genetics is certainly a factor, there is also attitude. Some patients want a medication prescribed for everything. Instead of making lifestyle changes they want a pill. A great example is Prevacid--thousands of people were put on that mediation for stomach upset when they may have been better off losing weight or modifying habits. The patients I consider healthier, avoid taking medications unless absolutely necessary. They realize they all come with side effects. As people age, the risk of side effects increase yet the doctors feel pressured to prescribe something or the patients don't feel like they got what they came for. Also, in the litigious atmosphere they are in, the doctors feel they have to prescribe meds to cya (cover their a#$%). I have more and more respect for the doctor my mother had in her senior years who asked her if she was going to take something if he prescribed it and if she said no, he didn't order it. Myself, when I look for a doctor, I look for one who doesn't prescribe a lot of meds.

I do agree with you almost entirely. Twenty pounds weight loss and Prilosec may be out the door and hypertension medication too....One pill too many or one pill too few can kill you...over time. Only a very good physician can make that call for me. Some medication are life savers and prolong our lives and some are at best borderline with dangerous side effects.

I read what Billethekid wrote and it does worry me that people who don't have the money are not seeing the doctor as often as they should and probably not unless they are sick and do not get the screening tests that would divert something developing into a far more serious situation.

I also think that some people turn to the quicker and easier fix of supplements and natural medication because of the lack of funds and fear of doctors...SOMETIMES.

I think that taking a lot of untested and unproven supplements and holistic cures is dangerous. I think a healthy diet, exercise, good companions, keeping up with medical issues, seeing your doctor..and dentist regularly and taking their advice is a good common sense approach.

We have to realize too that just as the pharmaceutical manufacturers make a lot of money, so do the people who manufacture supplements.

No one can tell us seniors what to do. We will do what we all think best of course. And everyone has a different idea on that.

I just wish you all health and happiness.

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by hope2soon

as a pharmacist I will give you my unscientific view of patients. By far the healthiest patients I see are the ones on the fewest medications. I have seen 90 year olds who look great and people who are 65 look like they have one foot in the grave. While genetics is certainly a factor, there is also attitude. Some patients want a medication prescribed for everything. Instead of making lifestyle changes they want a pill. A great example is Prevacid--thousands of people were put on that mediation for stomach upset when they may have been better off losing weight or modifying habits. The patients I consider healthier, avoid taking medications unless absolutely necessary. They realize they all come with side effects. As people age, the risk of side effects increase yet the doctors feel pressured to prescribe something or the patients don't feel like they got what they came for. Also, in the litigious atmosphere they are in, the doctors feel they have to prescribe meds to cya (cover their a#$%). I have more and more respect for the doctor my mother had in her senior years who asked her if she was going to take something if he prescribed it and if she said no, he didn't order it. Myself, when I look for a doctor, I look for one who doesn't prescribe a lot of meds.

Excellent post...thanx for sharing your experienced insight into a very significant issue in our "culture" these days.

btk

[lightworker888]

I understand where you are coming from Gracie, and with your medical experiences, it is a conclusion that is understandable. We all make our choices based on what we know and what we have experienced.

From my experience, I have used various supplements but do not regularly use ones that I have not researched. Supplementation has an old long history, be it from herbs, both eastern and western, homeopathy or any other natural source. In fact treating "sickness" by natural means is in every culture and seems to be based on holistic understanding. It has such a long written and anecdotal history of success, that I fail to see how it should be dismissed. Every individual has a unique biochemical makeup and everything that we put into our bodies reacts somewhat differently so I expect that some of the "side effects" of drugs might be because of our individual uniqueness.

I do not use supplements that are in the drug stores as they are usually made by a branch of big pharma companies that are trying to get into the "natural health" arena. I prefer companies that have a longer history of making their supplements from a natural source rather than a "lab" source.

We all need to be careful of anyone to whom we trust our life. We give that power over by choice and we have to live with the consequences of making that choice. I am doing my best to trust myself and my choicemaking as I know that in the end I am the only one living my life so there is no one else to take the fallout.

And I am doing it as joyfully as I know how to it, moment by moment and day by day!

Love 'n Light
LW888

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by lightworker888

I understand where you are coming from Gracie, and with your medical experiences, it is a conclusion that is understandable. We all make our choices based on what we know and what we have experienced.

From my experience, I have used various supplements but do not regularly use ones that I have not researched. Supplementation has an old long history, be it from herbs, both eastern and western, homeopathy or any other natural source. In fact treating "sickness" by natural means is in every culture and seems to be based on holistic understanding. It has such a long written and anecdotal history of success, that I fail to see how it should be dismissed. Every individual has a unique biochemical makeup and everything that we put into our bodies reacts somewhat differently so I expect that some of the "side effects" of drugs might be because of our individual uniqueness.

I do not use supplements that are in the drug stores as they are usually made by a branch of big pharma companies that are trying to get into the "natural health" arena. I prefer companies that have a longer history of making their supplements from a natural source rather than a "lab" source.

We all need to be careful of anyone to whom we trust our life. We give that power over by choice and we have to live with the consequences of making that choice. I am doing my best to trust myself and my choicemaking as I know that in the end I am the only one living my life so there is no one else to take the fallout.

And I am doing it as joyfully as I know how to it, moment by moment and day by day!

Love 'n Light
LW888

Lightworker, You and Senior and Billethekid and Barryrx...and so many others make my life so much nicer. There are so many different ways of looking at things and you folks that I just mentioned in particular phrase what you have to say in such a way as to make everyone who reads it think about your insight. You are always adding to my information.

Thank you all for being you.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

It's a free country. People exercise their right to choose to either get a prescription filled, or not.

Not sure why you always bring up "freedom" as though that's an issue here.

Just because doctors' time is spent treating acute illness and acute/chronic diseases and less on nutrition/diet does not mean the people have never heard of healthy diet benefits. It also doesn't mean that doctors don't ever talk about it. You're not there in the exam room and office consultation time, to know what the drs do and don't do.

It's impossible to know about every doctor-patient relationship but it's easy to learn about the condition of the doctoring profession in general. Many books have been written by doctors about doctors. Some people know from personal experience and/or from stories they have heard from friends, family and message boards.

Isn't this the reason why Villagers are enthusiastic about the new Villages Health Care Centers? Isn't it because these centers hold the promise of better operating systems and better doctors? Marcus Welby M.D.s?

Of course it remains to be seen how much better it will be. That's because some very important aspects will remain the same: 1) these Marcus Welbys will still not be nutritionists (not that I expect them to be) 2) patients for the most part will still have the same mind set that doctors should prescribe some miraculous medication(s) that will fix everything (requiring little or no effort on the part of the patient) and 3) doctors have been trained in medicine and naturally want to please their patients by prescribing medications to relieve symptoms.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I think that taking a lot of untested and unproven supplements and holistic cures is dangerous.

It's not always dangerous but it certainly has that potential. It comes under the heading of self experimentation. There's no guarantee that the herb or supplement will contain what the label says it contains. And when a person starts combining several different herbs and supplements there's no telling what effect the combination will have on their health.

Hundreds and hundreds of people, perhaps thousands, have died by combining various untested herbs and supplements.

Search such headings as, "5 Dangerous Herbs And Supplements That Can Kill"

and "What You Don't Know Might Kill You - Supplements"

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Not sure why you always bring up "freedom" as though that's an issue here.

It's impossible to know about every doctor-patient relationship but it's easy to learn about the condition of the doctoring profession in general. Many books have been written by doctors about doctors. Some people know from personal experience and/or from stories they have heard from friends, family and message boards.

Isn't this the reason why Villagers are enthusiastic about the new Villages Health Care Centers? Isn't it because these centers hold the promise of better operating systems and better doctors? Marcus Welby M.D.s?

Of course it remains to be seen how much better it will be. That's because some very important aspects will remain the same: 1) these Marcus Welbys will still not be nutritionists (not that I expect them to be) 2) patients for the most part will still have the same mind set that doctors should prescribe some miraculous medication(s) that will fix everything (requiring little or no effort on the part of the patient) and 3) doctors have been trained in medicine and naturally want to please their patients by prescribing medications to relieve symptoms.

I bring up "freedom" here because nobody on meds here takes them at gunpoint nor threat of prosecution/jail. The person decides on their own volition to take them or not.

It really has nothing to do with the new TV primary doctor clinics that are opening here in order to pay physicians well enough to have some take-home pay while seeing few enough patients per day to be able to spend time with them to DO the counseling for a healthier, pill-free lifestyle.

It was stated from the outset of the "Marcus Welby" analogies on this subject in the Daily Sun, that with Medicare patients being the majority, the only way for the physicians to make more than their costs of running the practice is to see huge numbers of patients.....which equals only a couple of minutes per patient.

The practice will probably be subsidized by those who are setting this up, so that a good salary can be paid the physician, regardless of income losses due to low reimbursement from Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance, and from unpaid bills.

I think this new practice setup is a good thing, like all the good things the developers have done here where we can exercise and be active outdoors all year round! I found it impossible to swim, run, bicycle etc. on ICE, snow and slush!

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

I bring up "freedom" here because nobody on meds here takes them at gunpoint nor threat of prosecution/jail. The person decides on their own volition to take them or not.

But why say it in the first place? Did anyone say otherwise? I'm asking because this is not the first time you have brought up this argument.

It really has nothing to do with the new TV primary doctor clinics that are opening here in order to pay physicians well enough to have some take-home pay while seeing few enough patients per day to be able to spend time with them to DO the counseling for a healthier, pill-free lifestyle.

I think it does have something to do with it because you argued against what I said in my opening post. You argued in favor doctors. But in the past you also argued in favor of the new health clinics because supposedly they will represent a needed improvement. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? We are okay the way we are? Or we need a new system with better doctors?

It was stated from the outset of the "Marcus Welby" analogies on this subject in the Daily Sun, that with Medicare patients being the majority, the only way for the physicians to make more than their costs of running the practice is to see huge numbers of patients.....which equals only a couple of minutes per patient.

Then the current system is failing us. Why did you speak up on behalf of it in your first reply to me?

The practice will probably be subsidized by those who are setting this up, so that a good salary can be paid the physician, regardless of income losses due to low reimbursement from Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance, and from unpaid bills.

And the subsidy comes from where? All the evidence points to the fact that the money will come from the patients. There's no free lunch.

I think this new practice setup is a good thing, like all the good things the developers have done here where we can exercise and be active outdoors all year round! I found it impossible to swim, run, bicycle etc. on ICE, snow and slush!

It will be better for those who don't mind paying a monthly or yearly fee. It's called "concierge service".

[gomoho]

[
It will be better for those who don't mind paying a monthly or yearly fee. It's called "concierge service".[/QUOTE]

Please show me one place you have read or have even been able to deduce that this is going to be "concierge service". And why are you beating it up so badly when it hasn't even started. Sometimes things really do work out for the better - believe it or not. Give it a chance to get off the ground and then make a decision if it works for you or not.