[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by tulio

Medicine is not a science; it is an art. The government and Fauci scared all of America into believing (and forcing) all of us (Americans) that the virus would kill if not hundreds of millions, everyone who was not vaccinated. It was overreaction at it worst. There were no studies done, just some doctors (not scientists, opinions). Their best guess.
Then they shut down everyone who disagreed with them. Scientists do not do that.
They listen to the opinions of others and then test theories to see which one has the most validity. That did not happen. It was my way or you are fired. I got the vaccine and the booster, but I have no problem with those who did not. If you are so afraid of a virus, that have been with us for centuries and will always be with us, then you need to live in a cave and never be around other people.

Fauci, really?

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Emotional arguments don't help your case...

The incidence of children dying from covid was miniscule...

Emotional arguments? Is that what you tell the parent of the dead child, that they are only being emotional?

What is the incidence of children being harmed by a vaccine that would reduce that number below 1800? 1800 might be acceptable as long as you are not one of the 1800 families but why not make it 800 or 300 if you can?

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Being vaccinated does not prevent transmission...

Prevent as in 100% will not happen? No.

Prevent as in far less chance? Yes.

I'll take a partial solution over no solution any day.

[MorTech]

It seems that the lipids in the vax cause platelet storms and clotting in some people with high blood sugar/diabetes.

[Blueblaze]

I lived through the Covid years in a community, where by definition, everyone single person was at "high risk" from dying of a disease that only killed old people.

And yet, to this day, I do not personally know anyone, or even know anyone who knew anyone, who died from Covid--19.

But I personally know two people who nearly died from that stupid experimental vaccine that didn't even work. My next door neighbor had a stroke within 12 hours of getting her first Moderna shot and would have died, but for the fact that we live in a place where emergency care is used to dealing with strokes. And my wife's friend's husband nearly died from a heart attack caused by myocarditis, within 12 hours of receiving his booster, after suffering no ill effects from his previous two shots.

To put that in perspective, I lived through the Polio epidemic, and as a child, took the Salk live virus vaccine that had a 1% chance of actually giving you polio. But, although I knew many polio victims in my childhood, but I never knew a single person who ever got it from, or was in any way harmed by that vaccine.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that we all dutifully took that stupid, dangerous shot AND THEN GOT COVID ANYWAY! I had it THREE TIMES!

I wouldn't take that stupid shot again if you put a gun to my head.

[Keefelane66]

Originally Posted by rpalumberi

No expert as well, however, we read that Sweden never shut down, required masks or social distance. Life went on as normal. If only ... After what we have been reading/seeing, not sure why anyone would trust the media or this administration. We're sure someone made a lot of money at our collective expense.

You forgot the other administration when the pandemic started!

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

I lived through the Covid years in a community, where by definition, everyone single person was at "high risk" from dying of a disease that only killed old people.

And yet, to this day, I do not personally know anyone, or even know anyone who knew anyone, who died from Covid--19.

But I personally know two people who nearly died from that stupid experimental vaccine that didn't even work. My next door neighbor had a stroke within 12 hours of getting her first Moderna shot and would have died, but for the fact that we live in a place where emergency care is used to dealing with strokes. And my wife's friend's husband nearly died from a heart attack caused by myocarditis, within 12 hours of receiving his booster, after suffering no ill effects from his previous two shots.

To put that in perspective, I lived through the Polio epidemic, and as a child, took the Salk live virus vaccine that had a 1% chance of actually giving you polio. But, although I knew many polio victims in my childhood, but I never knew a single person who ever got it from, or was in any way harmed by that vaccine.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that we all dutifully took that stupid, dangerous shot AND THEN GOT COVID ANYWAY! I had it THREE TIMES!

I wouldn't take that stupid shot again if you put a gun to my head.

Shot or post, I'm pretty sure I know which one is "stupid"

[blueash]

Originally Posted by rpalumberi

No expert as well, however, we read that Sweden never shut down, required masks or social distance. Life went on as normal. If only ... After what we have been reading/seeing, not sure why anyone would trust the media or this administration. We're sure someone made a lot of money at our collective expense.

You of course are aware that the decisions to shut everything down were made by/during the previous administration. That administration took great pride in "Operation Warp Speed" which pushed hard to develop a Covid vaccine faster than any other vaccine had been developed. It was experts selected by that administration that ran the response to Covid. The media dutifully broadcast live all the news events produced by that administration where the President and his experts expressed the administration's opinions and gave advice on the Covid emergency.

But you knew that didn't you? You were alive at the time.

Your comments about Sweden are also evidence of a lack of paying attention or just plain ignoring the facts. See the chart below showing death rates per million for Nordic countries. You might notice one nation, with blue lines had a very elevated fatality rate. Yup, the blue lines are Sweden. The death rate in Sweden was 10 times that of Norway in 2020, or 1000% higher.

In early 2020 Sweden closed senior high schools, restricted large gatherings, and asked its citizens to practice social distancing.

In 2021 the govenment of Sweden to its credit saw the numbers and instituted changes including vaccine passports, face masking, severely limiting social gatherings, etc.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I didn't read the original article so may I pick your brain???? How high a rise in Troponin I did they consider diagnostic of acute myocarditis? As we both know, a one mile jog or a violent coughing spell can give a small Troponin elevation. I've seen patients admitted for ACS from the ER for a Troponin of 0.07 in the absence of ANY other suggestive sx, or even after an MVA with the dx of cardiac contusion. So I guess my concern is the threshold for diagnosing post vaccination myocarditis on the basis of Troponin I alone.

None of the patients were diagnosed with myocarditis. All had a very transient rise in troponin. This is not my field, you may be better equipment to analyze their data. The pre-print article is HERE https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/ejhf.2978

The authors tested using high-sensitivity cardiac troponin which has a lower range of normal in females because of their lower cardiac mass. There were 777 persons, 40 of whom showed an increase above "the upper limit of normal" adjusted by sex. "sex-specific 99th-perentile of healthy individuals and upper-limit of normal (ULN) 8.9 ng/L in women and 15.5 ng/L in men,"

In 18 of the 40 they felt other reasons explained the increase [the authors do not say what the other reasons were]. Of the remaining 22 persons, 20 were female and only 2 were male. The median value of those with elevations on day 3 was 13.5 and on day 4 when the test was repeated the median value of those 22 patients was 6.0

All 22 had repeat troponin testing, EKG, and the authors clearly wrote that none were diagnosed with myocarditis, they instead use the term vaccine associated myocardial injury.

Re your comment about exercise, see Just a moment...
where healthy bicycle racers had high sensitivity troponin measurement before, 3 hours after and 24 hours after a race. The median before the race was 1.9 and three hours after was 60, a level none of the vaccine patients reached. 24 hours after the race the troponin level was still over the 99th percentile in about 1/3 of the racers.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by blueash

Wiley online library is a source for reading articles published in their mostly peer reviewed journals. Thus your criticism is bogus. The fact that the article is available free to you indicates that Wiley is willing to allow you access to some copyrighted material that you normally would have to pay to read.

I don't understand why you are arguing that the publishers of medical journals should not charge for their journals. You cannot read the New England Journal of Medicine for free. You cannot read Lancet for free.

This study used the Moderna vaccine. The authors recruited hospital workers in good health and they received the vaccine. No baseline labs were done which would have been useful. At day 3 after the vaccine a troponin cardiac enzyme test was done and those with elevated levels, follow up testing was done.

None of the people with elevated tests became ill, all had normal follow up testing which showed no evidence of injury. Interestingly it was overwhelmingly women, who have a lower baseline level, who showed mild blood test elevations. In the real world it is young men, not middle aged women who have rarely presented with clinical heart issues after vaccination.

The study is interesting and shows that the medical community is continuing to evaluate the vaccine, and publish data which certain people might see as negative. No cover up, no ignoring, no conspiracy. Just medical scientists pursuing information. Like they are supposed to do.

For those of you who had mono [mononucleosis], meaning almost everyone.... It is nearly certain you had hepatitis as the mono virus, EBV, causes a subclinical liver inflammation, meaning you are not liver sick but you have an elevated liver blood test, in about 90% of mono patients. Same story with chicken pox.

The point being that a subclinical mild elevation of a blood test is almost always a nothing burger.

Intense exercise elevates the same heart blood test used in the Swiss study in almost all exercisers. Nobody is going to suggest you don't exercise because it damages your heart as shown by the short term troponin spike

Thanks for the correction about wiley.com, blueash. I've always gone to the medical publications themselves (lancet, jama, patient information sheet on a medication, etc) or received pdf files of studies whenever I've wanted to delve further into any medical thing.

Your explanation still supports my overall complaint though - that unscrupulous sources are falsely extrapolating data to use to push an anti-vax agenda.

[shut the front door]

Originally Posted by Two Bills

Assuming you went with the scientific experts and had the vaccine, I agree.
I seem to notice that the people still looking for anti-Covid Vaccine stories, are always the skeptics who never were vaccinated.
Are they still unsure of their choice, even paranoid of it?
Most who are vaccinated seem quite happy with their decision, and just get on with their lives.

So the poster you replied to stated that he made his decision and doesn't feel the need to discuss it with others. But you only agree with him if he did it your way. Entitled much?

[Altavia]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Shot or post, I'm pretty sure I know which one is "stupid"

LOL...

Amazing how some think being obtuse and contrarian is a substitute for intelligence...

[npwalters]

Originally Posted by FosterMomma

Those of us reading and writing about this are alive and likely so because we either had the vaccines or the majority of those who live around us did. All of us were in the high risk category at least because of our age. That’s enough proof for me.

I did take the shot - 3 times. However, you have absolutely no way to know if your statement is accurate. The only way to know is if a monitored segment of the peer group did not take the vaccine. In the one European country where they decided to let COVID take its natural course the rates of infection were similar to everywhere else.

[Two Bills]

Originally Posted by shut the front door

So the poster you replied to stated that he made his decision and doesn't feel the need to discuss it with others. But you only agree with him if he did it your way. Entitled much?

Absolutely.
Definitely entitled to my opinion.
Just as you are to your opinion, and I did it without the snide aside.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by npwalters

I did take the shot - 3 times. However, you have absolutely no way to know if your statement is accurate. The only way to know is if a monitored segment of the peer group did not take the vaccine. In the one European country where they decided to let COVID take its natural course the rates of infection were similar to everywhere else.

Unfortunately, that is far from a controlled study. The major problem with Sweden is that it has a small population that is fairly ethnically homogenous, so it's hard to draw any conclusions from their data. You can read research from "Acta Medica Scandinavia" till the cows come home, but very little of it can be walked over to the US.