[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by merrymini

Plenty of vaccinated people got covid and spread it. I am no longer listening to media hype and world illness stories, especially from a pack of liars in the media and medical community who refused to listen to common sense and face facts. Children don't need shots and the facts show that, in fact, only severely compromised kids died of the disease, otherwise they fared well. If you do not listen to the facts where they are presented and proved to be true by the numbers, why should I believe anything else you say?

Agreed. Unless you are the family of one of the 1800+ children that died - then you might feel differently.

[Cybersprings]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

The only times your last statement would be false:

IF your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you chose not to isolate, AND you got other people sick.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

OR

If your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you did isolate, AND other people who normally would rely on you for things are not able to rely on you for things, AND a hospital bed had to be taken up by you, with the nursing and physician staff attending, AND someone else had to walk your dog, AND someone had to take out your trash, or feed you, or bring you groceries, or whatever else.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

Wow. Other than fact that the vaccine does not prevent everyone from getting COVID, does not prevent all serious cases, does not prevent death, and does not prevent you from spreading the disease, great one-sided post.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Cybersprings

Wow. Other than fact that the vaccine does not prevent everyone from getting COVID, does not prevent all serious cases, does not prevent death, and does not prevent you from spreading the disease, great one-sided post.

So the vaccine is not 100% effective? Imagine that.

[Bill14564]

From the study itself:

COVID-19 associates with a substantially higher risk for myocarditis that(sic) mRNA vaccination, and myocarditis related to COVID-19 infection has shown a higher mortality than myocarditis related to mRNA-vaccination. Thus, for the majority of individuals, the overall very favorable risk-benefit ratio of booster immunizationspersists.

[ehonour]

I've got to love this.

This entire thread is a great example of why "believe the science" is flawed. Science advances by exploring hypotheses through experimentation. Different experiments produce different results. Frequently, "science" claims are based on some level of majority in those results—but in nearly all cases, there are also minority results.

The VERY interesting thing is that those minority results are often confirmed years later, causing a change in the scientific claims. Examples are rife.

(Science once thought thalidomide was a great medication for morning sickness...)

[blueash]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

wiley.com is a sales website a publications company that specializes in educational materials. They are in the business of making money off publishing things. It doesn't really matter what - which is evident by the fact that they misspell a pretty important word on their main page; 'Shop Addmissions Tests" The study data appears on their website.

The nextbigfuture.com article uses the same study and analyzes it, comparing it to other studies. The writer of the article is not an immunologist, or a medical scientist. One of the comments reminds everyone that if you look at the entire population - you'll see an increased risk of myocarditis among people who contract COVID is 7 times WORSE than the risk of getting it as a result of the vaccine.

David Strom is a bloviated alt-right propaganda writer. His opinion about any subject at all is 100% irrelevant.

Wiley online library is a source for reading articles published in their mostly peer reviewed journals. Thus your criticism is bogus. The fact that the article is available free to you indicates that Wiley is willing to allow you access to some copyrighted material that you normally would have to pay to read.

I don't understand why you are arguing that the publishers of medical journals should not charge for their journals. You cannot read the New England Journal of Medicine for free. You cannot read Lancet for free.

This study used the Moderna vaccine. The authors recruited hospital workers in good health and they received the vaccine. No baseline labs were done which would have been useful. At day 3 after the vaccine a troponin cardiac enzyme test was done and those with elevated levels, follow up testing was done.

None of the people with elevated tests became ill, all had normal follow up testing which showed no evidence of injury. Interestingly it was overwhelmingly women, who have a lower baseline level, who showed mild blood test elevations. In the real world it is young men, not middle aged women who have rarely presented with clinical heart issues after vaccination.

The study is interesting and shows that the medical community is continuing to evaluate the vaccine, and publish data which certain people might see as negative. No cover up, no ignoring, no conspiracy. Just medical scientists pursuing information. Like they are supposed to do.

For those of you who had mono [mononucleosis], meaning almost everyone.... It is nearly certain you had hepatitis as the mono virus, EBV, causes a subclinical liver inflammation, meaning you are not liver sick but you have an elevated liver blood test, in about 90% of mono patients. Same story with chicken pox.

The point being that a subclinical mild elevation of a blood test is almost always a nothing burger.

Intense exercise elevates the same heart blood test used in the Swiss study in almost all exercisers. Nobody is going to suggest you don't exercise because it damages your heart as shown by the short term troponin spike

[Karmanng]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

So the vaccine is not 100% effective? Imagine that.

NEVER was if you learned that covid viruses coronronas have been around way over 50 years with NO cure

[tulio]

Medicine is not a science; it is an art. The government and Fauci scared all of America into believing (and forcing) all of us (Americans) that the virus would kill if not hundreds of millions, everyone who was not vaccinated. It was overreaction at it worst. There were no studies done, just some doctors (not scientists, opinions). Their best guess.
Then they shut down everyone who disagreed with them. Scientists do not do that.
They listen to the opinions of others and then test theories to see which one has the most validity. That did not happen. It was my way or you are fired. I got the vaccine and the booster, but I have no problem with those who did not. If you are so afraid of a virus, that have been with us for centuries and will always be with us, then you need to live in a cave and never be around other people.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Rzepecki

I haven’t been confused for even a second. I made up my mind what I wanted to do and did it. I don’t feel the need to discuss my decision with everyone to confirm that I made the correct choice. I have to live with the consequences of my decisions - no one else.

May we assume you are a world renowned virologist since you made up your own mind regardless of the experts?

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by blueash

Wiley online library is a source for reading articles published in their mostly peer reviewed journals. Thus your criticism is bogus. The fact that the article is available free to you indicates that Wiley is willing to allow you access to some copyrighted material that you normally would have to pay to read.

I don't understand why you are arguing that the publishers of medical journals should not charge for their journals. You cannot read the New England Journal of Medicine for free. You cannot read Lancet for free.

This study used the Moderna vaccine. The authors recruited hospital workers in good health and they received the vaccine. No baseline labs were done which would have been useful. At day 3 after the vaccine a troponin cardiac enzyme test was done and those with elevated levels, follow up testing was done.

None of the people with elevated tests became ill, all had normal follow up testing which showed no evidence of injury. Interestingly it was overwhelmingly women, who have a lower baseline level, who showed mild blood test elevations. In the real world it is young men, not middle aged women who have rarely presented with clinical heart issues after vaccination.

The study is interesting and shows that the medical community is continuing to evaluate the vaccine, and publish data which certain people might see as negative. No cover up, no ignoring, no conspiracy. Just medical scientists pursuing information. Like they are supposed to do.

For those of you who had mono [mononucleosis], meaning almost everyone.... It is nearly certain you had hepatitis as the mono virus, EBV, causes a subclinical liver inflammation, meaning you are not liver sick but you have an elevated liver blood test, in about 90% of mono patients. Same story with chicken pox.

The point being that a subclinical mild elevation of a blood test is almost always a nothing burger.

Intense exercise elevates the same heart blood test used in the Swiss study in almost all exercisers. Nobody is going to suggest you don't exercise because it damages your heart as shown by the short term troponin spike

I didn't read the original article so may I pick your brain???? How high a rise in Troponin I did they consider diagnostic of acute myocarditis? As we both know, a one mile jog or a violent coughing spell can give a small Troponin elevation. I've seen patients admitted for ACS from the ER for a Troponin of 0.07 in the absence of ANY other suggestive sx, or even after an MVA with the dx of cardiac contusion. So I guess my concern is the threshold for diagnosing post vaccination myocarditis on the basis of Troponin I alone.

[rpalumberi]

Originally Posted by DAVES

I am far from an expert. I recall reading that the normal path for a pandemic runs around three years. Initially there is a strain more likely to kill. When, is disease kills it is less able to be spread.
Covid weakened became less likely to kill. We even had people with no symptoms but would and could spread it to others.

For those who state they do not trust their doctor. Reality, personality yours or theirs in any case, the solution is truly simple time to find another doctor

No expert as well, however, we read that Sweden never shut down, required masks or social distance. Life went on as normal. If only ... After what we have been reading/seeing, not sure why anyone would trust the media or this administration. We're sure someone made a lot of money at our collective expense.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

The only times your last statement would be false:

IF your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you chose not to isolate, AND you got other people sick.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

OR

If your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you did isolate, AND other people who normally would rely on you for things are not able to rely on you for things, AND a hospital bed had to be taken up by you, with the nursing and physician staff attending, AND someone else had to walk your dog, AND someone had to take out your trash, or feed you, or bring you groceries, or whatever else.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

Being vaccinated does not prevent transmission...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

wiley.com is a sales website a publications company that specializes in educational materials. They are in the business of making money off publishing things. It doesn't really matter what - which is evident by the fact that they misspell a pretty important word on their main page; 'Shop Addmissions Tests" The study data appears on their website.

The nextbigfuture.com article uses the same study and analyzes it, comparing it to other studies. The writer of the article is not an immunologist, or a medical scientist. One of the comments reminds everyone that if you look at the entire population - you'll see an increased risk of myocarditis among people who contract COVID is 7 times WORSE than the risk of getting it as a result of the vaccine.

David Strom is a bloviated alt-right propaganda writer. His opinion about any subject at all is 100% irrelevant.

And Pfizer is in the business of selling vaccines... What's your point?

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Agreed. Unless you are the family of one of the 1800+ children that died - then you might feel differently.

Emotional arguments don't help your case...

The incidence of children dying from covid was miniscule...

[Bogie Shooter]

Hundreds of posts on this site in the past and you all never won your arguments, do really think you will now?