[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by donassaid

Any cruise line requiring masks and vaccinations can forget my business. I thought we lived in America, the former "home of the brave and land of the free"?

Most cruise ships are registered in other countries. NOT America. In addition, if you're on a cruise going to south america, central america, the Bahamas, or overseas, you're not going to be IN America anymore.

So you can just stay home. And free up the room for someone who enjoys freedom of travel AND freedom of good health.

[blueash]

Despite GEagle's use of CAPs and BOLDS what he is telling you is not true. He continues, over and over to claim that a person who has received a full course of Covid vaccines

If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others....
And here is the snippet that the myth promulgators latch on to to repeat ad nauseum that you can still get COVID but a less severe illness if you are vaccinated:

*Some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because the vaccines are not 100% effective. When this happens, vaccination might help keep you from getting seriously ill, based on data from clinical studies.

Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!

How can quote the actual truth then call it a myth shows and incredible mental block to evidence based medicine. He continues to admit that the vaccine has a failure rate but then says a recipient CANNOT spread Covid. While he may be a psychic and in the future there will be support for his prediction, he is wrong in his certainty.

The CDC has never said that a fully vaccinated person cannot spread Covid. In fact here is what it said on April 2, 2021

We’re still learning how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease.
Early data show that the vaccines may help keep people from spreading COVID-19, but we are learning more as more people get vaccinated.

I cannot find a single highly respected authority who has said what GE claims. What is true, and entirely different from screaming CANNOT is that a fully vaccinated person is very unlikely to infect others. I am very unlikely to have a car accident today but I'm still wearing my seat belt.

I will post the link instead of telling you to accept my word about what a fully vaccinated person can do. CDC Link

April 2, 2021
What You Can Start to Do
If you’ve been fully vaccinated:

You can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart...

This permission of course requires that everyone in the indoor space be vaccinated thus the cruise industry will need to see proof of vaccination for staff and passengers.

There is more which is specific to travel. Again the CDC Link for that with a longer discussion of travel safety issued on April 2, 2021

Fully vaccinated travelers are less likely to get and spread COVID-19. However, international travel poses additional risks and even fully vaccinated travelers are at increased risk for getting and possibly spreading new COVID-19 variants.

Even a poor reader can see that the CDC did not say a fully vaccinated person CANNOT catch or spread Covid.

In fact on Apr 8 the CDC updated a requirement, not a suggestion, that all air passengers flying into the US must have a negative Covid test within 3 days of boarding the return flight or you are to be denied boarding. Being vaccinated does not change this requirement. If the CDC believed that being vaccinated meant; as GE claims is well established; that you CANNOT spread disease they certainly would not have made this severe rule.

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

When you are that 1% who is affected directly by the virus, come back here and tell us how it's no big deal and the rest of the world should open.

Been there, done that. And, as it is for 99% of the people who got it, not a big deal.

Not minimizing it, but there also is a limit to everyone's patience. If you are in the high risk group - protection should be primary to you - worrying about other's health has a very short attention span.

Although, there are stories like the 100% isolated family in the middle of New Zealand who caught Covid for no reason at all and with no contact.

[merrymini]

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

[Luisa]

Ridiculous to require a mask if everyone is vaccinated.

[Alana33]

Here's a peek at St. Thomas, USVI info.


Why the Allure of the U.S. Virgin Islands Deep Into the Pandemic? – Skift

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by merrymini

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

Annual cruise participants 2019 approaching 30,000,000....

If cruise ships are diseased tin cans....using the same logic what should cars be called?.....taking into account the annual deaths and the number impaired!

Nothing more than different strokes/risks for different folks....without having to be right or wrong....because who is(n't)?

[blueash]

Originally Posted by merrymini

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney.

I really am looking for a serious reply. 16 months ago you knew nothing about Covid. Somehow you likely formed an opinion which you believe is accurate based on something. What informed you? It wasn't TOTV and it wasn't "experts." So where did you get information you relied upon to reach your beliefs? How do you decide what experts you do believe in matters of science?

[joelfmi]

“To be clear, no federal law authorizes the CDC to indefinitely impose a nationwide shutdown of an entire industry,” DeSantis said in a press release. “This lawsuit is necessary to protect Floridians from the federal government’s overreach and resulting economic harm to our state.”

[dougjb]

For all of you lovers of cruise ships, I admire your loyalty. I think we all hope for a return to normal as soon as possible. But, I would also urge all of us to take a deep breath and realize if we are patient a bit longer and do not jump the gun, we may have gain a stronger semblance of normality.

But, for those of you full of such aching for a cruise, I urge you to hold back a bit longer and with till there is an all clear. Walk with me in the following scenario. Suppose cruise ships start their rounds again and for some reason they do not require vaccination passports or are otherwise negligent in their cleanliness (needless to say, norovirus keeps entering my thought pattern). Perhaps someone slips through the cracks. Then what happens if there is an outbreak, either major or minor on board. What might be the reaction? Is it possible that the ship will be quarantined with guests confined to quarters. Some of you may love cruises but for whatever reason, perhaps economics, restrict your expense by taking an inside cabin (sans windows). How many days do you think you could stand being locked in that floating coffin before you start thinking it was foolish to take the cruise that early until things settled down? Such an early failure of a return to normalcy can delay us for far longer than if we simply bit the bullet for a bit longer.

It's just a thought.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of so-called "experts" on this thread who think that by bellowing their information a bit louder or through caps, they are more convincing. I view these individuals as well meaning, but with unproven credentials. Reading a CDC release and cherry picking the information is not expertise. Instead, I will wait for those who have epidemiological credentials of the highest calibre to guide me as to when it might be appropriate to start traveling or cruising again. Even then, I might add on a couple of weeks or months after the all clear. I don't think I'd want to take the chance, even as a fully vaccinated person of infecting others or perhaps getting sick myself. I care about others. We are all walking this planet together and I will not be subject to selfish whims.

We have come a long way and sacrificed a lot of good times to destroy what semblance of normalcy is growing.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Hiltongrizz11

This virus is virtually no risk for over 99% of the population. If you are afraid stay home. Let the rest of us keep the world open so you have one to come back to after you've cowered away for so long.

I have seen this over 99% on TOTV many times. Where does your number come from? I'll present some numbers for your consideration

There are about 330 million living in the US
There have been 560 thousand Covid deaths out of 31,000,000 positive tests. So the death rate alone is 560000/31000000 which is already a 1.8% fatality rate. We know that some of those 31 million positive tests are repeats in the same person so the denominator of the calculation is somewhat falsely elevated. The fatality rate is actually higher than 1.8%

A fatality rate of 1.85 clearly on its own is much higher than under 1% you have reported. And you seem to believe by using the phrase "This virus is virtually no risk" that death is the only risky outcome of catching Covid.

10% of Covid patients, including both those ill enough to be hospitalized but also those with mild symptoms become "long haulers" which means they have life altering symptoms for months following the acute illness.

So we now are at abt 2% death and 10% long term symptoms, or 12% of those who get Covid get serious outcomes. Add the many patients who get really sick but do not get long term complications which includes most of those hospitalized and you have a large number of people, many many multiple of less than 1% for whom Covid is a serious medical disease. Somehow I think those who ended up in the hospital but not dead or long hauling would want to be included in the Covid is bad group, not the Covid is a low risk disease group. 2 million Americans have been sick enough with Covid to be hospitalized. That is 1 in 15 positive tests. Are you surprised that 7% of those with Covid get hospitalized? I was.

Maybe it is time to stop writing that Covid is no risk for 99% of the population. Everyone in the population is at risk with much lower risk numbers for children. Yes, I have used outcomes of those who got Covid to make a point, not percentages of the entire population. Why? If you know that 100% of the population has been at risk of the disease you can use the disease outcome as an estimate to how the disease would act in the whole population. But if you reject this thinking:

2 million hospitalized, 3 million long haulers, 1/2 million dead so that is already 5.5 million out of 330 million, or nearly 2% of just those seriously impacted.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by dougjb

For all of you lovers of cruise ships, I admire your loyalty. I think we all hope for a return to normal as soon as possible. But, I would also urge all of us to take a deep breath and realize if we are patient a bit longer and do not jump the gun, we may have gain a stronger semblance of normality.

But, for those of you full of such aching for a cruise, I urge you to hold back a bit longer and with till there is an all clear. Walk with me in the following scenario. Suppose cruise ships start their rounds again and for some reason they do not require vaccination passports or are otherwise negligent in their cleanliness (needless to say, rotovirus keeps entering my thought pattern). Perhaps someone slips through the cracks. Then what happens if there is an outbreak, either major or minor on board. What might be the reaction? Is it possible that the ship will be quarantined with guests confined to quarters. Some of you may love cruises but for whatever reason, perhaps economics, restrict your expense by taking an inside cabin (sans windows). How many days do you think you could stand being locked in that floating coffin before you start thinking it was foolish to take the cruise that early until things settled down? Such an early failure of a return to normalcy can delay us for far longer than if we simply bit the bullet for a bit longer.

It's just a thought.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of so-called "experts" on this thread who think that by bellowing their information a bit louder or through caps, they are more convincing. I view these individuals as well meaning, but with unproven credentials. Reading a CDC release and cherry picking the information is not expertise. Instead, I will wait for those who have epidemiological credentials of the highest calibre to guide me as to when it might be appropriate to start traveling or cruising again. Even then, I might add on a couple of weeks or months after the all clear. I don't think I'd want to take the chance, even as a fully vaccinated person of infecting others or perhaps getting sick myself. I care about others. We are all walking this planet together and I will not be subject to selfish whims.

We have come a long way and sacrificed a lot of good times to destroy what semblance of normalcy is growing.

The people who run the cruise industry by and large are pretty smart folks.

Their companies have now been closed for over a year and in a much weaker position than ever before.

They understand that if they start sailing and there are outbreaks of the virus they will be signing their death warrants.

Unless they require vaccinations plus covid tests before boarding no cruising for us and cannot imagine they would be foolish enough to take any risks.

[roscoguy]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

PLEEEEZEE!!!!!

I have tried a dozen or more times to dispel this myth/rumor. If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity). It is a VACCINE, it was developed to protect people from contracting COVID, not to mitigate any illness they acquire, and hence end the pandemic. Does anyone really think we spent trillions of dollars just to make some individuals less ill????? Nonsense. And yet this myth keeps getting repeated and repeated on this forum and elsewhere. (FYI, this myth started with an article in an obscure medical journal that suggested a vaccinated individual could come in contact with droplets from an infected individual and harbor them in their oropharynx for an hour or so and during that time possibly spread the virus. Their only conclusion was that more research was needed, but the whole premise was somewhat unlikely.)

Still wrong, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Thanks to blueash and others who have already responded with links provided to dispel this rumor. All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Bottom line, the previous statement by T was DEFINITIVE

But definitively wrong?

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by merrymini

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

Guess this means you will not be joining us on a cruise.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by blueash

Despite GEagle's use of CAPs and BOLDS what he is telling you is not true. He continues, over and over to claim that a person who has received a full course of Covid vaccines


How can quote the actual truth then call it a myth shows and incredible mental block to evidence based medicine. He continues to admit that the vaccine has a failure rate but then says a recipient CANNOT spread Covid. While he may be a psychic and in the future there will be support for his prediction, he is wrong in his certainty.

The CDC has never said that a fully vaccinated person cannot spread Covid. In fact here is what it said on April 2, 2021

I cannot find a single highly respected authority who has said what GE claims. What is true, and entirely different from screaming CANNOT is that a fully vaccinated person is very unlikely to infect others. I am very unlikely to have a car accident today but I'm still wearing my seat belt.

I will post the link instead of telling you to accept my word about what a fully vaccinated person can do. CDC Link




This permission of course requires that everyone in the indoor space be vaccinated thus the cruise industry will need to see proof of vaccination for staff and passengers.

There is more which is specific to travel. Again the CDC Link for that with a longer discussion of travel safety issued on April 2, 2021



Even a poor reader can see that the CDC did not say a fully vaccinated person CANNOT catch or spread Covid.

In fact on Apr 8 the CDC updated a requirement, not a suggestion, that all air passengers flying into the US must have a negative Covid test within 3 days of boarding the return flight or you are to be denied boarding. Being vaccinated does not change this requirement. If the CDC believed that being vaccinated meant; as GE claims is well established; that you CANNOT spread disease they certainly would not have made this severe rule.

Originally Posted by roscoguy

Still wrong, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Thanks to blueash and others who have already responded with links provided to dispel this rumor. All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.
But definitively wrong?

Nice try ladies and gentlemen, but that IS NOT what I said. I SAID that a fully vaccinated individual WHO ACQUIRED IMMUNITY COULD NOT acquire or spread the virus. For those with reading comprehension issues, that means I EXCLUDED the 5% that you are referring to.

Do I need to quote the CDC again????? Or is the paragraph above clear enough? OR SHOULD I SHOUT LOUDER????

Now that I explained why I am right and you are wrong-----I'll explain what you read on the CDC site but failed to understand.....and I'll just use an example to explain.

If 100 people are "fully vaccinated", SOME of them can still acquire and spread the virus, but likely will get less ill and are less likely to die. THESE are the 5%.

So yes, if you word it that way, fully vaccinated individuals can acquire and spread the disease.

But I was referring to the 95%. These people were fully vaccinated AND FULLY IMMUNE. So to shout it once again for those that are heard of hearing, THESE PEOPLE CANNOT GET OR SPREAD COVID. And once again, PERIOD!

I can't make it any simpler than that.

So thanks to those that tried to muddy the water with "their own reading" and then formed their own mutual admiration society thanking each other for their "contributions".